School Shooting in Germany

[smoth]

I am going to get a gun one day so that I can go to the woods in some camp and shoot at tin cans. I like doing that. I can shoot printouts of politicians I don't like or people I don't like. I can have a lot of fun shooting shook up coke cans though, that shit is cool.

I don't own a gun because I have no gunsafe.

I don't own a gun because I am untrained with them.

I think that banning something for fear of it is stupid. I also think that if I say any more of my opinion I would offend someone as this is a emotional charged topic.

[SwiftSpear]

I still see dont see anyone making a _good_ argument for owning a firearm...

the logic behind gun ownership is the name logic countires used to justify building up stocks of nuclear weapons: M.A.D or mutually assured destruction (if you shoot me ill shoot you back and we both die)

M.A.D works fine until you get someone unconcerned about their own saftey or just willing to take the risk, in which case all hell breaks loose. M.A.D makes the world a much safer place- right until it dosnt.

I can sleep better knowing that if someone breaks into my house and sets my alarm off, they are a good deal more likely to be fucked then I am.

It's also alot of fun target shooting. There's alot of dangerous things that are just fun, like boats, or motorcycles. Life would suck if we sterilized society so far.

[Acidd_UK]

But boats and motorcycles are not designed specifically to kill people. The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

[KaiserJ]

living in canada, we have much stricter gun control laws than the USA. there's a very long waiting period to purchase a weapon or get a licence, guns are very expensive, and the laws regarding how the weapons are stored is also very strict.

however, all this really does (lets say for a 16 year old kid who decides he needs a gun for whatever reason) is facilitate the flow of illegal firearms from the USA... why bother buying a legitimate gun, and having to wait for months to actually use it, when you can buy one for half the price out of the trunk of somebodys car and have it immediately?

i'd also like to differentiate between the school shooting in germany (which is likely the work of a sociopath) and the general types of acts of gun violence, which as far as i know is motivated either by gang and other criminal activity. reading forbs post about being robbed (which really does suck, i hate hearing about stuff like that) kind of puts it all into perspective... two examples of gun related violence with very different motivations and outcomes.

take the first example, the kid shooting people at his school. if he's that much of a crackpot that he intends to kill many people, for no obvious gain other than satisfying his own twisted urges (he wasnt coming in there and killing people to take their wallets) then he'll probably find a different way to do it... a gun is essentially a tool, but many tools can accomplish the same job... you can stir paint with a screwdriver, and you can kill 15 people with a homemade bomb.

the second example, being robbed by gangsters... it would be my guess that those guys were very desperate people, who saw no other option to getting money than to steal from someone else. it's a cycle of victimization, perhaps they feel slighted by their lack of opportunity and their place in society, and the only way that they know to get money is to steal it from somebody else. i doubt forb would have been any less willing to fork over his money for his life if they carried knives or any number of other dangeous objects.

to me, gun control is a band-aid solution for deeper problems that are part of the current human condition. my only question : are the problems that cause violence and lawlessness a product of our society? or is it an unavoidable aspect of human nature...

[Felix the Cat]

But boats and motorcycles are not designed specifically to kill people. The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

-Casual target shooting ("lets go shoot coke cans")
-Shooting sports (see also: Switzerland)
-Hunting
-Collecting (yes, some people collect guns with no intention of using them)
-Self-defense via intimidation (take my friend... he used an unloaded, compressed-air 'replica' pistol to scare off a particularly aggressive beggar who was trying to get into his car. Even fired directly into the skull, that gun would give you... a nasty lump on your head and a bad headache, and require a couple of stitches.)

Also, good luck killing someone with a small-caliber gun, like a .22. You'd have to literally shoot into the ear canal at point-blank range to kill someone with a .22 round. The bullet's so small - and low-powered - that, as Forb pointed out, it either bounces off or lodges in bone. Even the hollow-point rounds (more commonly used at that caliber) aren't really effective when used on anything larger than a small dog; they just don't have enough stopping power. You're more likely to be able to kill someone with a ballpoint pen.

In fact, few guns are actually capable of killing someone in one shot. This is especially true if said someone is actively trying not to be shot; shoot someone in the arm with a large-caliber round like a .45 and he'll be pissed, not dead, and will likely be just fine with routine medical attention.

Anyone who's actually handled and fired guns knows that they are not automatic death machines. Want a very dangerous weapon that will cause terrible wounds and likely death when used in anger? Try a large ------- knife.

I hope this corrects some of the factual errors we've been seeing.

[SwiftSpear]

KaiserJ: Excellent post. I guess the real question is can gun control really be made to work to restrict the access of those types of people... or alternatively, does generally restrictive gun control really make a difference in the large scale in minimizing the risk those types of people cause to society.

[smoth]

I am going to get a gun one day so that I can go to the woods in some camp and shoot at tin cans. I like doing that. I can shoot printouts of politicians I don't like or people I don't like. I can have a lot of fun shooting shook up coke cans though, that shit is cool.

I don't own a gun because I have no gunsafe.

I don't own a gun because I am untrained with them.

I think that banning something for fear of it is stupid. I also think that if I say any more of my opinion I would offend someone as this is a emotional charged topic.

But boats and motorcycles are not designed specifically to kill people. The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

did you read all that?

[Peet]

Might I emphasize the verb in Acidd's sentence?

The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

You don't have to carry a gun around in a public place in order to hunt, shoot at cans, have a collection, or defend your property.

[smoth]

It is still a load of bullcrap.

"The only reason to own a car is if you are prepared to take another human's life."

"The only reason to have sex is if you are prepared to make another human's life."

"The only reason to become a doctor is if you are prepared to save another human's life."

I can keep this up...

[Felix the Cat]

Might I emphasize the verb in Acidd's sentence?

The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

You don't have to carry a gun around in a public place in order to hunt, shoot at cans, have a collection, or defend your property.

Gun control isn't about restricting the carry of guns - it's about restricting the guns themselves. We can talk all day about under what circumstances one should carry a gun, but in the end, it's completely missing the point.

[SwiftSpear]

Might I emphasize the verb in Acidd's sentence?

The only reason to carry a gun is if you are prepared to take another human's life.

You don't have to carry a gun around in a public place in order to hunt, shoot at cans, have a collection, or defend your property.

Gun control isn't about restricting the carry of guns - it's about restricting the guns themselves. We can talk all day about under what circumstances one should carry a gun, but in the end, it's completely missing the point.

Not entirely true... Who can/should be issued carry permits is an issue of gun control as well. Although, honestly, if we trust police officers to carry guns... I don't see why licensed citizens shouldn't be trusted as well.

[Forboding Angel]

That's an excellent point swift. +1

[SwiftSpear]

The one thing I do find extremely odd is that the majority of nonlethal weaponry police officers make use of is harder for civilians to access then more expensive and significantly more lethal firearms technology.

I wouldn't mind owning a projectile tazer personally.

[PicassoCT]

If not a single weapon was sold at all anywhere in the world, over 9000 lives would of been saved.

If we in Addition stoped the selling of fertilizer and fuel (the BomberMansClassics) we could stop Amokapes completely and together peacefully starve to death

Welcome to modern times, were everybody is able to deal a good lot more Damage than a Peasant with a Fork..

How about telling the Truth for a Change? No, nobody of us will make it to the Top, Society is unpenetratable, no matter how hard you will work all your life, and if you take the Non-Real-World Standards for Real, you get *a nice Explosive Combination..

*(with a little help, from your postAmok friends-> There is never ever, not even one RL-Troll there, to admit "well you know, he was this loner Lolcow, and so we mobbed him a little for fun, profit and lulz." Who could have expected Trollremose, after they got butthurt in RL..)


(Topic is: I can levelup easily in WoW, why can´t i in RL? There must be a Conspiracy against Me, to sabotage my Potential!
On the other side, it they got a glimpse on Reality as it is, a lot simply might start a Revolution, so Amok is the less bloody Mess..

PS: Swift, excellent Point, but in Germany you can quite easily buy non-lethal Weapons like pepperspray or electroshockers..

Tazers are forbidden because they have been ruled unsafe, after some heartfailure incidents in other Countrys, happening to quite non-guilty Citizens. Never underrestimate the Temptation for Police, to not get themselfes in Danger and to Tazer first, question later, exactly because the Tazer is always ruled harmless - in Comparison to lethal weapons.

[Acidd_UK]

I think you have to weigh up the balance of benefit/cost.

I am not trying to argue against legitimate registration and use of some specialised firearms, such as hunting and target rifles, in certain places (like registed hunting areas). I am undecided if you should be able to 'go out in the woods and shoot cans'. Primarily, I am arguing against the belief that some people seem to have that they have a right to carry a concealed firearm, which generally would be a pistol.

I am also trying to point out that people's "I have a right to defend myself" argument obviously still has to have limits. Does the right to defend yourself mean that you should be able to carry around submachine guns, grenade launchers etc? If not then why should you be able to carry a pistol? What about hunting knives? Should you be able to carry them in public?

Personally, I wouldn't want to live in a socitey where a large number or people were legally allowed to carry guns in public. I see it a breach of my right to live safely. I don't want to stumble into a gun fight, whether it's a .22 revolver or something more lethal. The fact is, guns have a much much higher chance of inflicting injuries on a 3rd party than knives, knuckle dusters etc.

As for the argument "a .22 round wouldn't penetrate your skull". Well unfortunately for you, it doesn't need to. It could nick/penetrate any of several major arteries or your heart, which would probably kill you before you cuold get medical help, alternatively it could penetrate your liver, kidney, eye, etc, .The latter might not kill you but would cause severe, permanent, damage.

Finally, there's the crime of passion factor. You come home to find your wife in bed with another man. If you own a firearm, then that gives you an option that you otherwise wouldn't have. You can licence and register firearms to the most sensible people you like, but the fact is even sensible people do stupid things occasionally.

[smoth]

I wouldn't mind owning a projectile tazer personally.

We can't get those? I wanted a few for home defense.


grenade launchers are illegal.. FFS.

[Licho]

How many cases are there of gun-owner preventing a serious crime (preferably without bloodshed)?

Do such events outweight the burden/extra life lossess of having too many weapons in society?

Its nice to "have a right to defend yourself" - but if it turns out, that having a gun actually decreases your safety instead of increasing it, why bothering? Its then just psychological tool...

[Forboding Angel]

Acid, remember the ribcage. It'd be damn near a miracle if a .22 round actually made it near your heart.

[fraghawk]

I have the remedy.

give everyone the geass so they can say "dont shoot me"

or, we can destroy all guns and go back to swords. (at least you can defend aginst them effectly)

[tombom]

I have the remedy.

give everyone the geass so they can say "dont shoot me"

or, we can destroy all guns and go back to swords. (at least you can defend aginst them effectly)

Do you live in fucking Final Fantasy land or something?