Georgia

[Forboding Angel]

@ Forboding Angel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 073-00.jpg

they can pull anything, like the diesel locomotives. If not one is capable alone, take two/three/usw...

The electric ones have equal or even more power per weight as the diesel locomotives.

The chief disadvantage of electrification is the cost for infrastructure (overhead power lines or electrified third rail, substations, control systems). Public policy in the US currently interferes with electrification---higher property taxes are imposed on privately owned rail facilities if they have electrification facilities. Also, US regulations on diesel locomotives are very weak compared to regulations on automobile emissions or power plant emissions.

That paragraph sums up what I was thinking. Cost. The cost for infrastructure would be astronomical not to mention the fact that it is extremely fugly.

The fuglyness factor is not really a big deal, but if you look at a picture of a diesel train chugging through colorado, then imagine the lines and whatnot needed for an electric train, it doesn't paint a very nice picture.

Additionally, for the solution to be truly viable, the other forms also need to be available in an electric or alternate way as well. Ships that traveled at half the rate they do now (much less a quarter) would drive up prices for goods on all of the continents to unthinkable proportions. Rinse repeat for the other forms.

Concerning Georgia:
I work with 3 Germans (natural born germans who immigrated in the 70-80's). The are quite upset about this, and tbh, I'm not really seeing the issue. Unless I'm mistaken, georgia started it right (I mean the current bullcrap -- Not originally)? And all of this is a product of the USSR going tits up correct?

I don't see how it affects anyone other than the georgians and the russians. Meh, I suppose other than people getting pissed off about the ruskies taking things a bit too far I'm not entirely understanding what all the fuss is about (Yes I am aware that the georgian people are getting screwed, but why fuck with a giant if you're afraid of getting squished?).

Edit: It appears that probably a lot of my info about the geo>ruskie is prolly wrong or bad. I haven't been paying attention to the conflict, so sorry for being the slow kid here.

[Cabbage]

Considering what russia has done in eastern europe since the second world war, its hardly surprising that the germans you know are worried. Alot of countried around there have only (relatively) recently broken free of russian influence/control.

[Forboding Angel]

Yep, that's essentially the gist of what I'm hearing. It also seems that the bastards have been going for a hushed land grab for some time now.

Wow, this stuff is so forked up it's hard to understand all the sides of it.

[Licho]

It's been just 15 years since Russian army with all their crap including nukes left my country..

Russian tanks - NO THANK YOU!!

Even if Georgia started this war and even if their president is war criminal and should be tried in Hague, world cannot allow Russia to act like this and advance further into Georgia to gain some permanent control over the country.. They don't really have to attack capital, mere presence of army is enough for puppet goverment control over country...

Putin cannot be trusted, he is de-facto president for the third time, though it's forbidden by constitution and he ordered massacre of 300 of his own citizens - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings - just to start second Chechyen war and get into power..

Btw Chechyen war was exactly same.. It was similar to Georgia attacking Ossetia just with nobody to stand up for them..

This is not like NATO acting by UN resolution to protect Kosovo (though I dont agree with that action myself), situation is very different now.. Russians wont just leave now.

[Forboding Angel]

Newsflash. The UN isn't going to do jack shit. They never do until it's far too late.

I'm just waiting for people to say that the US should do something about it. That would just be slightly hypocritical now wouldn't it?

After doing some research, I'm not too thrilled with the entire situation, but damnit, georgia started it which is causing a lot of shit. If Russians had started it then we could put foot to ass for king and country and not look like jackasses for it.

*sigh* What a mess. I suppose if people wanted the US to get involved, we could just park an ohio class off of their shores and let em think about that for a while. But I for one have just a little bit of trouble bailing out all the jackasses who create the stereotype of "Dumb American".

No country in europe is gonna do a goddamn thing about it, so then people look across the water like we're supposed to do something for the fuckheads who couldn't fight their way out of a whorehouse. And if Russia keeps advancing (and oh yes they could if they felt like it). Who in europe is gonna stop them? Maybe you ought to ask China to do something... Oh wait. Communist. Well, sucks to be anyone in the path of the Russians now doesn't it?

Get England to do something about it. At least Tony Blair had a set of balls. But don't ask the US to do something about it after all of europe's bullshit. Everything's all fun and games until over the horizon, "Oh fuck".

(as an aside... Props to all the other small countries over there who helped and are helping to do what is right, for as small as they are, they have a large set of balls and it's worth noting)

[Snipawolf]

I wonder how biased RussiaToday is... I mean, if Georgia is truly applying to be in the EU and NATO and junk, then why are they throwing 'nades in cellars full of people...? It may be true...

[Forboding Angel]

Because Russia is Hardcore pissed off about georgia trying to get in the EU and the UN.

[Argh]

After doing some research, I'm not too thrilled with the entire situation, but damnit, georgia started it which is causing a lot of shit. If Russians had started it then we could put foot to ass for king and country and not look like jackasses for it.

What, and start World War III, over a conflict where our strategic interests aren't really threatened?

It'd be one thing, if we'd actually gotten serious about deploying SDI, but meh, we spent that money on Iraq and Afghanistan- so that's a non-starter.

Our entire fleet of submarines (note: much smaller than the 1980s) and stealth aircraft, while incredibly powerful and nifty, would not be nearly sufficient to do anything serious about the Russians' still-extant strategic arsenal, if they thought that a nuclear exchange was a good idea. Which they certainly would, if we started hunting their launchers

That reality hasn't changed a bit, folks. In fact, it's worse than it was during the 1990s, when we still had a significant submarine fleet to rattle sabres with... and the Russians damn well know that.

In the end, there's practically nothing that the U.S.A. can do on a major scale against Russia. While their military is nowhere near as strong as it used to be, neither is ours, and the reality of nuclear war simply hasn't changed at all- the "reductions" in strategic arms do not mean that Armageddon has become less possible, but merely allowed both sides to retire a bunch of stuff that was overkill in the first place, without giving up the ability to obliterate mankind. We're hollering and stuff, but if anybody thinks we'll do a lot more than that, they're wrong. That said... I expect that any of the new NATO members in Eastern Europe who can pony up the cash to buy arms from us will find that we're suddenly very interested in giving them stuff like Patriot launchers and other weapon systems like that, that magnify their defensive capabilities quite a bit.

We're probably going to see a new arms race, and maybe a new Cold War. It's pretty obvious that the "deteriorating" diplomatic climate between the U.S. and Russia is going to the deep-freeze at this point- by now, most Americans have heard about what's up, and we're not happy about it, given that when you get through both sides' stories, the Russian invasion looks massively heavy-handed.

You guys in Eastern Europe have to remember... the average American usually does not pay attention to your part of the world. All this stuff about Georgia and the Russian's meddling was new to me, tbh- the only stuff I paid any attention to was the whole pipeline incident last year, that caused so much squawking.

This event, however, will cause Americans to study what's going on, just as we suddenly got real interested in everything in the Middle East after 9/11. If you think we'll do nothing at all... you're wrong.

America doesn't like it when people screw around with its allies- and while we probably cannot do anything useful in this mess, we'll almost certainly do our darndest to make it clear that the Russians aren't going to win the next fight so easily, or push its neighbors around so much. And I suspect that the EU won't just sit back, either- especially Germany. They'll find the money now, to arm and aid the new NATO members, I'll bet. They know a strategic threat when they see one.

I can see the Obama camp right now, thinking to themselves about how they're going to explain their sudden change of policy re: domestic spending before the election starts getting serious... and McCain's people are probably breathing a serious sigh of relief, that all of a sudden people are focused on something McCain's known for being an expert on, instead of Fannie Mae and high gas prices

[yuritch]

Speaking of Fannie Mae: guess what the large part of Russian Stabilization Fund (oil money) is invested in? USA and Russia hold each own hostage on this - the money are russian, they fuel US economy and either side can probably 'freeze' them somehow.
As for difference between Chechnya and the present conflict: had the Ossetians took Georgian school hostage with all the kids? Had they sent suicide bombers to blow up an opera theater in Tbilisi with all the visitors? Had they captured a hospital and took hostage all the people inside? Chechenian 'fighters' have done all of that and more. And some of that was between Chechen wars, ie when Russia left them alone (those events helped to start a second Chechen war).
As for grenades thrown into the cellar full of people: I suspect they don't tell the whole story on Russia Today. How many of those people were armed? That's a civil war, every person who can carry a weapon isn't neutral in such a conflict. That usually means every male aged 12 years and older has an AK and is in fact a combatant (and even if he has no AK right now, he can get one in a few hours). Georgians might have had a reason to kill at least some of those in the cellar (though it might indeed have been full of civilians, it's hard to tell now).

Update: this site claims a large combined US/British/French fleet is headed for Persian Gulf, maybe for Iran. Was the Georgian war really a distraction for something else?

[Sleksa]

*sigh* What a mess. I suppose if people wanted the US to get involved, we could just park an ohio class off of their shores and let em think about that for a while.

According to some statistics i read, the russians have ~1500 military aircraft in that area alone(georgians have 4 fighters~~), and i dont think that the US aircraft carriers can house a thousand fighters in them

Also the news said that the russians had taken control of Georgian town of Gori, but a reuters news reporter has not seen any signs of russians there~~


Shakasvili has really fucked this one up. I guess he expected that the russia would not be able to respond so fast into their attack, and they would be able to cut the tunnel off and secure the ossetia, and that they would be able to rely on some military support from US(since the georgians already fight with US training and weapons), but it looks like putin had predicted the georgian move a few years beforehand.

Also russia considers this area its backyard, US involvment in the area would be like russia sending its army to help the mexican communist party (lol) to start a civil war

[KDR_11k]

Noone's asking for the US to interfere (except maybe the Georgians) but Georgia's weapons being supplied by the US and Israel raises the possibility of the US deciding by itself to move in. Especially since it's election time, wars tend to be good for PR (at least until they're over and you have to deal with building everything up again). Would be a good chance to make people not think so much about the money drained by Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't think the US can afford it but the current government has already demonstrated that "can't afford" does not mean "can't do", not that it'll help the future of the country much.

[Forboding Angel]

In a morbid sort of way I'm glad this happened. Reason being, in the bast 6 days the price of oil has fallen from 150 bucks a barrel to 114.

Being cut off isn't really a problem. We have our own oil, and we have shittons of it. Environmentalists and bleeding heart liberal democrats have been keeping it out of bounds for ages. They could give a flying shit whether we end up in a stone age, as long as we're not burning oil.

And we have the messiah himself proclaiming for all to hear
"We could save more oil than we could possibly drill for by simply making sure that our tires are inflated properly!" Good christ, you can't make this shit up.

I was speaking figuratively when I mentioned ohio class submarines. Speaking of, those things can be launched from light years away, there isn't any need to be anywhere even remotely close to the area you are aiming for. Also, I meant this as a ploy. Additionally, the russian airforce is laughable compared to the airforce arsenal we have. YF-22 anyone? SU-25's and MIG-29's are hardly a match.

As argh said, the likelyhood of the US getting involved is fairly slim, and tbh I prefer it that way. I feel for the georgians, but we have our own country to run and are already extended somewhere. I heard a few minutes ago that the UN or EU called an emergency session and tl;dr, agreed to do jack shit. Big shocker there.

Just goes to show you. No one wants to live in russia. Even the russians don't wanna live in russia anymore.

/in before obligatory image spam...

[pharoph]

look what the mmedia found.. the pipeline that runs through gorgia holds 1% of the worlds oil.; since theres heaps of oil pipelines across the world that is ALOT. and big bucks for the russians if they capture it. in no time russia could get to be the second most powerful country in the world.

[AF]

Forb the price of oil fell because of slowing economic growth and worries the high price of oil was to blame, leading to reduced demand for oil.

Also Russia has a habit of cutting off supplies as a political weapon. Remember when supplies to the Ukraine where cut? And it had the knock on effect of cutting supplies of gas to most of Europe? There's a reason these non Russian pipelines are valued so greatly.

Also the UK has military, but they're overstretched as it is what with Afghanistan and Iraq. Sending troops to fight in Georgia would be political suicide. On top of that UK<->Russia relations are at an all time low after Russia assassinated that litvinenko guy with radioactive isotopes putting British people in danger of radiation poisoning then refused to extradite the guy who did it, followed by a lengthy tit for tat exchange.

[Comp1337]

AMERICA
FUCK YEAH
COMIN AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH

[Peet]

I would personally avoid invading Georgia simply because they have a really damn cool alphabet.

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It's like Cyrillic scribbled out by a meth addict...really now, that is too awesome to attack.

[yuritch]

President Medvedev (Russia) announced 'mission accomplished'.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has ordered an end to the military operation in Georgia. He said the objective - ├óÔé¼┼ôto compel Georgia to peace├óÔé¼┬Ø - has been achieved.

That's it, over.

[nemppu]

[Peet]

├É┬¥├É┬╗├É┬¥├É┬╗├É┬¥├É┬╗ ├É┬» ├É┬▓├É┬©├É┬Â├æãÆ ├É┬▓├æÔÇ╣ ├É┬┤├É┬▓├É┬░├æÔÇí├É┬Á├æÔé¼

[Forboding Angel]

AMERICA
FUCK YEAH
COMIN AGAIN TO SAVE THE MOTHERFUCKIN DAY YEAH

That movie is the shit

AF you are partially incorrect. No time to rebut atm but will later/