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Candleman wrote:.

please don't do this

hey, evolution can be simulated on a computer; why wouldn't it work in the real world? it doesn't have any complicated prerequisites, such as any kind of god. when you put together mutation, reproduction and selection of the fittest, you get evolution - it's an emergent property of systems with such features. real world's life is such a system.

One could argue reproduction and selection of the fittest are not required for evolution to occur.

The word evolution has, in my opinion, come to imply both of those concepts in its common usage.

Strictly speaking it should mean nothing other than change, so strictly speaking you could be correct, but it is seldom so strictly spoken.

SwiftSpear wrote:

Zoy64 wrote:but then, if evolution was how we came to be, why can't scientists find the "ape-man" skeleton? what about the "bird-fish" remains? now, if they could prove that evolution did happen and that we came from single-cell organisms that magically appeared on earth which in turn came from an accident; then i will no longer be a Creationist.

There are a couple examples of mid evolved species being found. The reality is, speciation seems to happen in on punctuated equilibrium so the relitive time spans where a species is in between commonly known speciations is generally very very small. (10,000 years vs a lifespan of a species generally being 2-300 million years)

Don't get me wrong... I'm a creationist, but I believe that the methods of creation were immensely complex, but ultimately scientifically understandable. I believe evolution played an integral role in the origin of species... but I don't think it was all strictly accidental. The point I'm making is that there is evidence out there... the evidence doesn't disprove the existence of God, but it does tell us a huge amount about the way the world around us works. There may be a "damn, well we understand how things work but this turn of events is just completely unexplainable" moment coming up in the future, I don't know... But I really don't think we're at that point yet. We have good evidence for evolution, we have good models for how it works, we are starting to develop an understanding of organic lifeforms in a more integral way then ever. If you can prove the hammer exists does that mean the carpenter didn't make the house?

now, i believe that God had set into motion an idea similar to evolution, for example there are many dog breeds around today that didnt exist 3,000 years ago, but a fish never turned into a dog.

*headslap*.

Someone is WRONG on the internet. Must resist. Must resist temptation....

dammit.

(fails roll to save vs. nerdrage).

Okay, apparently Zoy64 thinks God is mentally retarded. Let's pick a date - say, 6000 years ago, for creation. It's a popular number.

Now, the problem is that God created the Earth in an obvious pantomime of billions of years of natural history. All the light from the stars in the sky would have to be pre-planted, particularly since several are further than 6000 light-years away. All the fossils, all the striation of the earth that makes it look like billions of years of erosion, cooling, etc. have occurred. And the animals on earth look like they had a family tree. And creates cave art, mausoleums, sculpture, entire cities and plants evidence to suggest their age. There were people walking around 6000 years ago that recorded histories that did not involve any Adam and Eve folks. Continents that fit together like puzzle pieces and are gently drifting in directions that imply they used to be a single land-mass, complete with fake-evolutionary branches that fit with this drift (Australia, anyone?).

Now, given that he went to all that trouble, he's not going to "forget" one freaking proto-human-ape thing. He's designed the whole freaking universe to convincingly look like it naturally occurred, he's not going to miss something trivial like your goddamned bird-dog. And that's because God didn't make the Earth as a project to win the freaking Special Olympics. An omniscient being doesn't simply leave crap out.

If God created the universe whole instead of from a kernel like the Big Bang, he sure as hell intended for it to look like he didn't. And in that case, who the hell are you to start poking holes in his little masquerade?

The presence of stumps surrounded by trees does not make a forest any less a forest. One or two trees are gone and we can't find them - that doesn't mean you're standing in an open field.

That's actually quite a compelling argument, and tbh I had never looked at it from that direction.

I would have to say, if that were that the case. I would have to agree with you.

This thing is called evolution and it happens through mutation.

Now would you guys please refrain from turning this into yet another religion bullshit thread.

It already was... Where have you been?

Ehuw, everything in the future looks like apple crap.

Well according to Douglas Adams Pxtls argument proves the existence of God...

"God: I refuse to prove that I exist, because proof negates faith, and winhout faith I am nothing"

Therefore God goes and makes the world winhout any proof of divine intervention :)

rattle wrote:This thing is called evolution and it happens through mutation.

Evolution occurs through natural selection, a process by which the fittest members in an environment survive and other members of the population do not. The process of natural selection can involve mutations.

Mutations are pretty interesting, especially when they're helpful mutations, but most of them are just neutral. Some examples of helpful or neutral mutations and traits that are often subject to natural selection are those having to do with color.

I've recently been reading about butterfly gardens and how natural selection affects the butterflies' color and increases or decreases their chances of survival.

I think they should put a gargoyle somewhere in the garden below so the butterflies will have somewhere warm to rest and it would add a nice artistic touch to it. It is important that a butterfly keeps a high body temperature in order to be able to fly easily.

But if they wanna see evolution happen they need to make life hard like hell for the butterflies :)

manored wrote:But if they wanna see evolution happen they need to make life hard like hell for the butterflies :)

That's not necessarily true, but I think they were going more for conservation anyway. Butterflies are a fairly important part of the food chain and a lot of species are endangered because of pollution.

Sometimes a species could have evolved differently if it wasn't for unusual occurrences in the environment such as pollution.

I think it would be sad to see what the world would look like if it completely evolved due to the effects of something like pollution. I imagine it would be a rather sickly looking environment.

hai

It's destined to out-run kenyans

^ WANT. Along with two-headed cows plzkthx.

Talk about epic derailment. A thread about a Pixar movie becoming a heated debate about global warming, and religion vs evolution.

Yes indeed... I've yet to watch WALL*E.

I, to some degree, believe in intelligent design. When you look at biological, geological, and ecological systems... let alone physics systems (orbits and molecular structures are pretty frigging amazing)... there's lots of things that hint towards the indication that the stuff was put together intentionally.

Where it gets me is that I don't believe in magic. I think it's feasible that God can work miraculous acts through manipulation of quantum chaos, but that is innately unmeasurable, and I think it's clearly self evident that if God exists he doesn't want to be objectively scientifically proven. Therefore I believe that all creation was logically and systemically rolled out. IE, the way things were supposed to work was set up since the beginning of time and there are God designed scientific principles governing all things. There may be tweaks of unbelievable and improbably fortune, but we're not dealing with outright scientific impossibilities. "That looks pretty complicated, therefore it must have been God who did it through a process innately illogical" just holds no water for me. Everything we do and see has a logical scientific description and explanation, I'm MORE than willing to content that our current understanding isn't comprehensive, but ultimately I believe there are complex governing systems at work in all things. There is no scientific out that can be found that is just so complicated and logically nonsensical that it proves it must have been done by God.

I believe it's impossible to be so smart or you can find objective evidence of God. Otherwise what's the point of faith?

Manored: I only have theories as to why faith is important... but there are logical explanations for why a super intelligent, omnipotent being wouldn't want to be objectively understood. Some of them are scary... but meh, people will believe what they believe.

This is the topic that just refuses to die

I'm alright with that. I think its neat to hear other people's opinions as long as people can have a calm, polite conversation about it and not get overly touchy or offended.