European Elitiests suck

[lurker]

But apparently I'm banned if I talk about the subject. God forbid I love my country. SO I'm down to using acronyms... e s d c, a y c f p m t l t

There, everyone happy now?

You're banned if you do something like the blatant trolling that post was. You know that's what the warning was about. I'm not above reacting to false arguments either.

And before you get cross with me do remember that I'm largely ignoring the meat of the discussion. Also that I respond to post reports.

[Forboding Angel]

Aw come'on, that was a joke. Look I'll go remove the post.

Whats with the latest crackdown anyway? This is kinda a derails, but now all of a sudden you guys are really going for the gold. Actually the reason I visited just now was cause I was curious if I would be banned.

I thought a smartass remark like that would at least get a smile from one of you. Apparently not.

[Forboding Angel]

World War 2 is totally America's fault and they should of joined the war sooner.quote]

I don't blame America for not joining the war sooner, the fall of the reich had more to do with hitler losing a huge, huge chunk of his army trying to capture Stalingrad and the British cracking the enigma naval codes, not that the Americans didn't help, you did, just not as much as hollywood makes you think.

Oh and that movie you lot made about the cracking of the Enigma codes... you know, the one where the codebreakers all had American accents... made me wanna punch someone :)

I like Americans though, I was just in california, everyone was so nice, not the buffoons alot of people think, Id definately go back, I had a great time!

Well I wasn't alive at the time but I do know the sentiment. Look, a large part of the country wanted to help out, but America as a whole was very isolationist. Pearl Harbor taught us that we were as vulnerable as everyone else.

In fact, it's something that isn't told a lot, but americans kept going to England to fly for the RAF, but even then, the government of america didn't really like that shit, but what could they do?

It's a darn good thing many of our guys went over there too, the RAF was in tough shape having to deal with the massive luftwaffe. It's not like the english weren't putting up a hell of a fight, they were that's for damn sure, but they were outgunned and outnumbered, and many of our pilots, as were a lot of the english pilots, something to be reckoned with. One thing that did help was that hitler kept sending young un-experienced pilots to sortie in england/france/etc, and that in many cases was probably part of his undoing.

It's not like no one wanted to help over here, it's jsut that we had the revolutionary war, and the civil war, where tons and tons of people got killed, and people here just wanted to live quiet lives and no be bothered with the outside world. I don't agree with that view, but I can certainly understand it.

And yar steve, california is really great. Lot of really good and kind people out there too. I <3 california


O( forgot to mention, that was U-571 iirc, and yes of course hollywood buggers up the story, that shouldn't exactly be shocking by now. Regardless, the guys that did it were fucking heroes, no matter what country they were from.

[Spawn_Retard]

lolslavery...

Women are treated worse than any other type of generalized group there is, at the moment. They've always been treated like shit.

It's time you stopped playing spring buddy and lived in the real world.

Outside of spring women arnt faced with the same hostility and aura as they face here snipa.

If anything, the whole equality to men, and differences in gender when it suits them, pisses me off more than anything else.

[DavetheBrave]

the only thing special about the USA is the fact that everyone in the USA thinks its special.

[Sleksa]

Kinda cute. Few points:

Nazism and Fascism are different, as you will discover if you actually read about them, sometime.

Yeah, i have never read about anything related to these things, thanks for pointing that out!

However a minute search in the wikipedia gives me the following http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism
Nazism is often considered by scholars to be a form of fascism. While it incorporated elements from both left and right-wing politics, the Nazis formed most of their alliances on the right.

But perhaps you, a more cultured gentleman, could care to tell me about the vast differences between these 2 ideologies?

Now my point: during what years did enlightened Europeans either actively assist or refuse to interfere with the gassing of the Jews, and during which years did many countries of the now-EU turn away Jewish refugees from what remains history's most atrocious acts of government-sanctioned mass murder? 1938-1945 roughly?

Oh, Finland never gave up any jews to the germans, and a few finnish soldiers even won the iron cross during continuation war(which they for some reason, didnt accept)

Other than that, Europe is in terms with its past and is not trying to say its completely innocent, US on the other hand, seems to deny everything and counters every argument by saying that the europeans were worse, but im sure that the proud americans never did anything similiar, and that you have nothing to be ashamed of!
(im sure i've pasted this before~~)

http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record." By the end of the 19th century, writes David E. Stannard, a historian at the University of Hawaii, native Americans had undergone the "worst human holocaust the world had ever witnessed, roaring across two continents non-stop for four centuries and consuming the lives of countless tens of millions of people." In the judgment of Lenore A. Stiffarm and Phil Lane, Jr., "there can be no more monumental example of sustained genocideÔÇöcertainly none involving a 'race' of people as broad and complex as thisÔÇöanywhere in the annals of human history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War ... _civilians

South Korean military, police and paramilitary forces, often with U.S. military knowledge and without trial, executed in turn tens of thousands of leftist inmates and alleged communist sympathizers in the incidents such as the massacre of the political prisoners from the Daejeon Prison and the bloody crackdown on the Cheju Uprising.

....At least 100,000 people were hastily shot by the South Korean authorities and dumped into makeshift trenches, abandoned mines or the sea before and after North Korea invaded the south in June 1950. Declassified record

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_Wa ... th_Vietnam

According to the Vietnamese government, 1,100,000 Vietnam People's Army and National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam military personnel and 2,000,000 Vietnamese civilians on both sides died in the conflict.[1] (Technically, some of these dead were South Vietnamese members of the NLF, but it would be impossible to separate their constituency from the total.) Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 52,000[2] to 182,000.[3] Although most researchers of war history puts the civilian toll closer to 4 million[

The point here is not HURR DURR AMERIKA BAD EUROPE GOOD,
But rather that were both equally imperialistic, genocidial murderers and opressors, which only one of us tries to deny

[smokingwreckage]

Sleksa:

No, you're not equal, as I pointed out. Overall I think the USA is guilty of lesser and fewer crimes. (Ward Churchill, by the way, is about as credible an academic source as Donald Duck.) Honestly, what rational human gives a crap about whose nation historically did worse things generations ago? But I saw people heaping shit on an American via American history and frankly, if you're from anywhere on the European mainland you can't win that game. You certainly can't win on the basis of being nice to the American Indians. Europeans weren't.

Hiya Finland, how're the Lapps doing? Kinda displaced by your more settled approach I hear. Can you name a prominent European nation that didn't get where it was over a mountain of corpses, of aboriginals, rival tribes, and neighbouring nations? No? That's human history for ya.

Fascism is a pretty loose term and usually used to bludgeon whoever you don't like, but basically it's a particularly violent form of social elitism, while Nazism is a particularly violent form of racial/national elitism. They are different things, as you admit in your post, which makes me wonder what your point actually is?

[Strategia]

Now my point: during what years did enlightened Europeans either actively assist or refuse to interfere with the gassing of the Jews, and during which years did many countries of the now-EU turn away Jewish refugees from what remains history's most atrocious acts of government-sanctioned mass murder? 1938-1945 roughly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

St. Louis sailed from Hamburg in May 1939, carrying one non-Jewish and 936 (mainly German) Jewish refugees seeking asylum from Nazi persecution. ..... On June 4, 1939, the St. Louis was also refused permission to land her passengers under orders from President Roosevelt as the ship waited between Florida and Cuba.

This is just one example. The United States refused to accept Jewish immigrants just like the European nations did. All sides look bad when you bring this up. Part of why this happened is because nobody believed what the Nazis were doing to the Jews until the death camps were actually liberated.



CLARIFICATION: I think ALL patriots/elitists suck major monkey bawls. My interest in this thread is mainly correcting fallacious historical assumptions and arguments, from both sides, where applicable.

My own nation (as much as I hate to say these three words, I am morally opposed to the entire concept of the nation-state, but I digress) massacred thousands of Indonesians during the pre-colonial period (17th-18th Century), and many more died or lived in atrocious conditions during the colonial period of the 19th Century. After WWII, when Indonesia declared independence, Dutch troops murdered 150,000 people before acceding. This can pretty much be described as "evil". Just so you know I'm not trying to argue that "my country is superior".

[t0rb3n]

i'm just grateful that america came over back in the forties.

[lurker]

Aw come'on, that was a joke. Look I'll go remove the post.

Whats with the latest crackdown anyway? This is kinda a derails, but now all of a sudden you guys are really going for the gold. Actually the reason I visited just now was cause I was curious if I would be banned.

I thought a smartass remark like that would at least get a smile from one of you. Apparently not.

The trolling post I meant was the locked post. The post you made in this thread was just mildly annoying.

[Sleksa]

(Ward Churchill, by the way, is about as credible an academic source as Donald Duck.)

oh sorry. I guess it never happened then :{

Overall I think the USA is guilty of lesser and fewer crimes.

Ok

[Apollo]

Exelent, as you continue your pety arguments over who comited what crimes, the Australian and New Zealand allience war machine is nearing completion and you all will be doomed! Then you will truley know the defenition of crimes against humanity.

[Strategia]

Then you will truley know the defenition of crimes against humanity.

24/7 Crocodile Hunter reruns?

[smokingwreckage]

We've cloned him. We have 106 000 Crocodile Hunters. Once we no longer needed his genetic material, we had a ninja (disguised as a stingray) take him out.

SLeksa: the reliability of your sources is important. Ward Churchill is a nutcase. Get me a source other than him and we can talk. Meantime, point me to a European nation that wasn't built on somebody else's dead.

Strategia: yeah. Everyone sucked. I'm aware of that, and it wasn't my argument. My argument was that Europe was in no position to point fingers at the USA. That argument stands.

[Niels Bohr]

Exelent, as you continue your pety arguments over who comited what crimes, the Australian and New Zealand allience war machine is nearing completion and you all will be doomed! Then you will truley know the defenition of crimes against humanity.

Let the power of the atom decide!

[malric]

No, you're not equal, as I pointed out. Overall I think the USA is guilty of lesser and fewer crimes.

Neither americans or europeans should point the finger. They both did a lot of bad things. But they should both be aware of them.I do not know many americans, but sometimes I get the impression that too many think that USA is less quilty and thus it doesn't matter what bad things they did. And as someone said "Those who do not study history are condemned to repeat it".

And also, about how the bad europeans didn't do anything to the nazi regime, it's more or less the same as the americans did after WWII with the communists. Did they care people where deported by the russians by hundred of thousands ? For sure in East Europe nobody saw that . They gave the communists half of Europe and slept well. Again, I do not wish to say Europe is better. I think all are almost as bad .

[Strategia]

No, you're not equal, as I pointed out. Overall I think the USA is guilty of lesser and fewer crimes.

The USA has only been around for about two and a half centuries, the European nations generally go back at least twice that far or more. So of course the US has fewer blotches on its record - it wasn't even around by the time of, say, the Crusades or the Thirty Years' War.

[Regret]

Stupid individuals happily point fingers on abstract labels rather than on who is responsible.

[JohannesH]

Who the fuck cares about past crimes to give some moral high ground to some country, what matters is if they have learned anything since.

[Regret]

what matters is they have died since.

fixt