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but the problem is who will step in if the US steps out?
The candidates are Russia and china.
Does the western democratic world really wants to be influenced by the chinese regime or by the russian regime?

There is no doubt in my mind that if those 2 conservative countries are allowed to spread their influence you can forget about some of those beloved western liberal opinion.

yeah russia, with its 150 million people and one twentieth the economy of europe will propably transform the 700 million people europe into its colony :-[

And by china you must mean the rich eastern china, since its western provinces are pretty much on par with afganistan, which doesnt have that much influence over europe either.

The US is losing power and popularity not cause It's moral guidance is wrong or any of those nonsense but cause Europe and Asian countries and the elites there are regaining power and want a piece of the "action" and are doing all they can to make sure the rest of the population helps them get it.

Whut?

Not to mention the fact that This whole European uprising vs the US was a result of European economic interests not being given enough attention in the middle east as the US started the Iraq war.

very insightful, sir.

Torture is fine when you can know for 100% a person is guilty and knows the information your looking for that can save lives...

I wonder how many lives the guantanamo has saved so far, those random peasants from iraq must be well informed of the next possible bomb attack on london underground, which is being plotted in another 3'rd world country , possibly thousands of miles away from them~~

Another thing is that Banning torture is also extremely hard.

Not really no, as long as it isnt state sponsored(mossad =) )

It's not my fault America is acting "world police".

Who'se fault is it then?

Torture is fine, depending on the usage. Then again, I'm a person who believes that an inmate with a life sentence needs to be killed to preserve resources for useful members of our society...

And while we're on it, lets kill all the retards and unproductive members of the society, to preserve resources for useful members of the society? nice1

Oh so easy to criticize when your living in Finland.
Than again nobody really cares what Finland thinks..so I guess that's how it rolls...
Nothing is black and white Sleksa.
Your replies and attitude in general are of an adolescent romantically clinging to what you think is ultimate truth.
Things are mostly Grey and there is usually no one good or one bad.
I feel confident criticizing everyone because veryone makes mistakes and sometimes things are not easy to solve even when it's clear they are wrong.
You seem to have your targets set but I'v never actually read anything informative written by you,so...

[TS]Lollocide wrote:

Gota wrote: If the SSSR would have won the economic war with the US there would be a completely different history presented to us saying how Communism is great and Capitalism and democracy suck.

A brief note on this capitalism vs communism shit.

Communism only works while there is faith in the system, that your neighbour is working just as hard as you are for the same reward, this system immediately breaks down when faith is lost in it.

Capitalism works because it is faith in money, with none of the issues that befall communism.

Also I disagree that the US would want to 'keep down' other countries who are on the up and up, because they represent expansion possiblities for American companies (Or 'Partnerships') and, of course, a potentially massive new base of consumers.

And who doesn't want a new market of untapped consumer wealth?

Yes but who wouldn't want a place where workers can be paid a dollar a month or something.
There has been a lot of criticism in the way international organizations treat small developing countries.
Like influencing governments to be able to trample local economies and making sure they are completely defendant on a few international organizations while bankrupting local business owners in the small country.

I might have gone a bit overboard but international relations are so complex and so chaotic that actually trying to analyze or even just write an opinion about it is hopeless in this context.
This discussion just started smelling of the typical "bash us" which is silly to get into since its usually on such a low level.

People like to criticize countries as if they were criticizing Stalin's SSSR where everything was completely controlled and nobody could fart without being sent to the gulags..
Democracies and capitalistic economies are so complex..finding the one to blame is very hard since there is no single one person controlling everything...its mostly uncontrolled and just blows with the wind and people reacting with short turn outcomes in mind..

I do thing that the safest bet is to try and follow the money.
If anything can lead to good analysis its that.

Gota wrote:Oh so easy to criticize when your living in Finland.
Than again nobody really cares what Finland thinks..so I guess that's how it rolls...
Nothing is black and white Sleksa.
Your replies and attitude in general are of an adolescent romantically clinging to what you think is ultimate truth.
I feel confident criticizing everyone because veryone makes mistakes and sometimes things are not easy to solve even when it's clear they are wrong.
You seem to have your targets set but I'v never actually read anything informative written by you,so...

This discussion just started smelling of the typical "bash us" which is silly to get into since its usually on such a low level.

as a sidenote, i dont represent finland in any way, so trying to bash me by bashing finland is a bit weird ~~


Also id still like to know what you mean with

The US is losing power and popularity not cause It's moral guidance is wrong or any of those nonsense but cause Europe and Asian countries and the elites there are regaining power and want a piece of the "action" and are doing all they can to make sure the rest of the population helps them get it.

and

Not to mention the fact that This whole European uprising vs the US was a result of European economic interests not being given enough attention in the middle east as the US started the Iraq war.

Also sleksa its easier for you to criticize because your not actually talking out of your own interests...your opinions are an embodiment of someone else's interests.

However when an Iraqi(or anyone living in a country with some sort of conflict) is making a statement about what he thinks he will usually be talking of his own interests cause he is directly influenced by what is going on and will be in the future.

Sleksa wrote:

Gota wrote:Oh so easy to criticize when your living in Finland.
Than again nobody really cares what Finland thinks..so I guess that's how it rolls...
Nothing is black and white Sleksa.
Your replies and attitude in general are of an adolescent romantically clinging to what you think is ultimate truth.
I feel confident criticizing everyone because veryone makes mistakes and sometimes things are not easy to solve even when it's clear they are wrong.
You seem to have your targets set but I'v never actually read anything informative written by you,so...

This discussion just started smelling of the typical "bash us" which is silly to get into since its usually on such a low level.

as a sidenote, i dont represent finland in any way, so trying to bash me by bashing finland is a bit weird ~~


Also id still like to know what you mean with

The US is losing power and popularity not cause It's moral guidance is wrong or any of those nonsense but cause Europe and Asian countries and the elites there are regaining power and want a piece of the "action" and are doing all they can to make sure the rest of the population helps them get it.

and

Not to mention the fact that This whole European uprising vs the US was a result of European economic interests not being given enough attention in the middle east as the US started the Iraq war.

You are not representing finland but you live there.

About the other things i meant economic interests of Europe not coinciding with the US storming in nullifying contracts and shifting powers...

I think us is a pretty cool guy, eh tortures ararbs and doesnt afraid of anything

Ah, and for the "we brought down the comus"-crowd.. a little shocker you didn┬┤t .. it was actually quite simple Reagan and Gorbi accidentally managed to organise some sort of travell freedom (for highparty members only) they came into the west, they saw how it was, they compared, and they returned...
so not bombs..
not economy..
just some unimportant looking diplomats who prepared this..
won the cold war.

For the Euro vs. US-crowd.. well its now out that most of European Goverments supported the CIA-Torture Planes.. and a polish Army Compound was one of the locations were actuall torture took place.. so why lawsuit the US, when we can beginn a big cleanup over here?

I think the process that lead into this dirtroad began much earlier, it was already there when we established those Tradelines with Dictators and Civilwar Regions. With Coltan having the Congowar going, everyone of us is carrying a little evidence of guilt around in his cellphone, the shitflood just reached a level that couldn┬┤t be ignored with GITMO. Problem is also that all empires have this sort of provincial mindset in the package.. just remember those roman maps, which were white beyond there boarders .. and written down.. here is desert, here are snakes, there are dragons, monsters and barbarians .. here is were the terrorist lives..
So nobody in the US actually cares that mutch to leap into political actions what happens in there boarderprovinces of there Empire.. Pentagon will handle these, Langley will handle that.. i got problems on my own, why should i even admit that my voted for goverment is no longer attached to the constitution beyond the twelfe miles zone?
I don┬┤t say that Europe would do any better by the way.. as history showed, some of us would do even worser..
Problem is, that several attempts to civilise international affair, make them part of law & order, by getting the UN, the DenHaagCourt or other Institutions going, were spoiled by Dictators having entrance, nuclear powers having special rights or the current worldpowers in there hemispheres bowing those lawz to how they were usefull.
But lets assume we, would bring our Goverments to the leash, we would make the step out of oil countrys, stop them from conquering (of course those are just NATObases and very good relationships ) other countrys for there own good.. would that change anything?
No, because just weaker, regional superpowers would jump in (IRAN e.g. who is still waiting for an excuse by a American President for the little antidemocratic takeover) the gap, exploiting in other ways.
So what to conclude out of the wall? That Goverments needs limits beyond the boarders, even or especially when they are not seem to have power at the moment. No Torturing, no weapontrading. But those boundaries also don┬┤t have to be to strong, or otherwise we would just give place to similiar evil others (china sponsoring african dictators). Thats not the ideal answer, it┬┤s not the i have a dream of a peacefull planet, it┬┤s a shitty grey zone answer, but we got to have some lighthouse still left on, for finding the way out of the swamp, the day we can. That┬┤s why no Torture, to remind us who we should be, why & four what, they day we might have forgotten about all that.

LongCat is caged behind this Wall of Text, do not break it down into quotes, or you will release him upon the world.

gnol si tacgnol!

It┬┤s his evil twin... run...i always new,if something gets that long it has to get twisted..

It isn't my fault because I cannot change the way 300 million people think. THAT is why it is not my fault. If I were president, a lot of things would be changed. Or maybe they wouldn't, since we have three branches in our government system that check each other...

Ideally, it would be up to the owners of the retarded or incapable of functioning in society to decide whether or not they want to carry the burden THEMSELVES or kill them off. With the technology we have these days, you can find out the chances of your child being born with most life-altering diseases or disabilities. The rest is making sure you keep your bitches healthy so they don't miscarry.

My opinion on torture stands.

Snipawolf wrote:It isn't my fault because I cannot change the way 300 million people think. THAT is why it is not my fault. If I were president, a lot of things would be changed. Or maybe they wouldn't, since we have three branches in our government system that check each other...

Ideally, it would be up to the owners of the retarded or incapable of functioning in society to decide whether or not they want to carry the burden THEMSELVES or kill them off. With the technology we have these days, you can find out the chances of your child being born with most life-altering diseases or disabilities. The rest is making sure you keep your bitches healthy so they don't miscarry.

My opinion on torture stands.

Well said. But has nothing to do with the topic :D:DDd

Gota wrote:Torture is fine when you can know for 100% a person is guilty

Gota wrote:As i already wrote this all comes down to personal judgment of the operatives at each and every case...

You need to grow a little more culture, then hopefully you'll see the flaw in saying that relying on personal judgment of the operative can guarantee torture only be used on 100% guilty person.

Gota wrote:What if he deos not torture him to later find out it was a mistake and dozens of peopel died?or even just one.

You need to realise that this kind of setting never happens. You don't save people by torturing others. Your case is purely theorical, and has zero real life application. In the real world, first, there's always more efficient ways than torture to get your info, secondly, people you catch for torture aren't those who have info, and thirdly, those who'd have info won't give them under torture, fourthy, even if they had info and had given them under torture, then you won't believe and keep on torturing. But any ways, torture never saved anyone. It is a fallacy to think in term of saving people by torturing others.

Gota wrote:Things are mostly Grey and there is usually no one good or one bad.

There are still different shade of grey. And some countries darker than they want to believe.

PicassoCT wrote:would that change anything?

Yes, things can change. For instance, the Red Cross and the Geneva Convention managed to change things a bit toward the better.

zwzsg wrote:

Gota wrote:Torture is fine when you can know for 100% a person is guilty

Gota wrote:As i already wrote this all comes down to personal judgment of the operatives at each and every case...

You need to grow a little more culture, then hopefully you'll see the flaw in saying that relying on personal judgment of the operative can guarantee torture only be used on 100% guilty person.

Gota wrote:What if he deos not torture him to later find out it was a mistake and dozens of peopel died?or even just one.

You need to realise that this kind of setting never happens. You don't save people by torturing others. Your case is purely theorical, and has zero real life application. In the real world, first, there's always more efficient ways than torture to get your info, secondly, people you catch for torture aren't those who have info, and thirdly, those who'd have info won't give them under torture, fourthy, even if they had info and had given them under torture, then you won't believe and keep on torturing. But any ways, torture never saved anyone. It is a fallacy to think in term of saving people by torturing others.

Gota wrote:Things are mostly Grey and there is usually no one good or one bad.

There are still different shade of grey. And some countries darker than they want to believe.

PicassoCT wrote:would that change anything?

Yes, things can change. For instance, the Red Cross and the Geneva Convention managed to change things a bit toward the better.

You have very selective reading.
If your not aware of this than i will explain it to you.
You cannot take 2 quotes from different places,glue them and say one is a conclusion of the other when it is not so in the original text.
I Didn't even bother reading the rest after your reply to the first quote.
I did not say allowing personnel to make decisions would make it so that torture is only implemented in cases when u know for 100% the suspect is guilty...
I can't imagine how you inferred that from my post..

In my Eyes the whole Torture and War Business is something that has to be learne every 3 Generations again, by fatal wars and catastrophes. Geneva Convention, Red Cross and other civilised organisations were invented after disasters like the 30 year war in europe or ww1/ww2.. hiroshima, nagasaki.
Once these historical events are forgotten and humanity becomes fascinated by war, torture, sandboxpainting and tintoysoldiers again, it┬┤s time to repeat the horrible lesson. It is really sad, guess in 20 years after some bloody massacers our children will call us the foolish forfather who by the way threw away civilisation in series like 24. And they will swear never again, will revive those conventions, organisations and will start the circle anew.

Human mortality and the withincluded loss of personal witnesses of the Horrors of the past are a serious flaw of society. We forget and repeat stupid behaviour, even those memorialdays and historybooks don┬┤t teach that lesson..

It's not a matter of having collective memory...its a matter of basic education...
If I am raised and taught tolerance no matter if the person has a different skin color gender or religion than i will be tolerant to them.
If i was raised and taught compassion i will be compassionate...
This complex social behaviors and social consciousness need to be learned..
There is also the issue of a higher order.
Why don't people do whatever they want in a civilized country?I mean how can i know someone wont hurt me?I should hurt him first but this doesn't happen.why?
because law is enforced for the benefit of everyone..It's role is to assure that nobody will try to hurt me so that i can be relaxed and not hurt anyone else.
It is oppressive for the good of all.
This positive oppression does not really exist internationally,hence we have wars and conflicts.
Like with the law enforcement in countries
there is an issue with a higher oppressor in the international arena..corruption..
The moment a certain society is very clean of corruption inside itself it can than have the moral grounds to oppress others to this positive corruption free existence.
How to eliminate corruption?what are the source of corruption?how to remove them?
It is not the individuals who abuse the system who are to blame..it is the system's fault...
There is also the question of equality and human nature that strives to excel and thus separates people into different statuses and castes.