Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 05:37
Fixed.mecha wrote:They want you to notice one thing: So far, it is the only *working* FF mod for Spring, with working weapons, scripts, models and buildtree.
Question: what wasn't broken with FF 1.8/1.9?
Spring RTS Engine
Open Source Realtime Strategy Game Engine
https://springrts.com/phpbb/
Is FF Dead or Alive... That's not the question, anyone care?
Page 3 of 4
Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 06:33
Models and concept.Nemo wrote:Fixed.mecha wrote:They want you to notice one thing: So far, it is the only *working* FF mod for Spring, with working weapons, scripts, models and buildtree.
Question: what wasn't broken with FF 1.8/1.9?
Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 06:36
Scratch that, the models were broken.SwiftSpear wrote:Models and concept.Nemo wrote:Fixed.mecha wrote:
Question: what wasn't broken with FF 1.8/1.9?
Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 07:46
Fixed again.neddiedrow wrote:Scratch that, the models are broken.SwiftSpear wrote:Models and concept.Nemo wrote: Fixed.
LOL
Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 20:35
OMG, quote wars! Take cover!
Posted: 29 Aug 2007, 20:37
Faxed to news outlets everywhere.REVENGE wrote:Fixed again.neddiedrow wrote:Scratch that, the models are broken.SwiftSpear wrote: Models and concept.
Posted: 31 Aug 2007, 22:58
Personally I liked where optimus prime took it, people have tried making cut back versions before eg low fat FF, didn't really take off though (not meaning this as a flame, but look at the differences in download numbers). Maybe a mutator approach would be best.
Probably the biggest thing I would change with the mod in terms of what the spring engine can do these days would be to add shields to everything above frigate class and put more weapons on each ship (add anti fighter flak/rapid fire weapons as well as keeping the basic antiship armanent).
also I saw that some one figured out a while back how to make planes land on flying carriers... this would allow the fleet support cruisers to be brought back into the mod
I got about as far as modelling up a David Weber Honor Harrington style missile dreadnought before getting involved with other things
Probably the biggest thing I would change with the mod in terms of what the spring engine can do these days would be to add shields to everything above frigate class and put more weapons on each ship (add anti fighter flak/rapid fire weapons as well as keeping the basic antiship armanent).
also I saw that some one figured out a while back how to make planes land on flying carriers... this would allow the fleet support cruisers to be brought back into the mod
I got about as far as modelling up a David Weber Honor Harrington style missile dreadnought before getting involved with other things
Posted: 01 Sep 2007, 06:35
that happened for the same reason that anything new rarely gets played most people don't want to switch or either hate whatever it was to the point that the whole idea needs to be redone for them to try againmecha wrote:Personally I liked where optimus prime took it, people have tried making cut back versions before eg low fat FF, didn't really take off though (not meaning this as a flame, but look at the differences in download numbers). Maybe a mutator approach would be best.
actually that doesn't work... the units collision spheres bump into each other casuing an unending bobbing on top of the pad (or under it depending) i poked kloot about it in that collision thread but no response.also I saw that some one figured out a while back how to make planes land on flying carriers... this would allow the fleet support cruisers to be brought back into the mod
Posted: 01 Sep 2007, 09:26
Well, Kovin is working on new concepts, but he could really use some fresh databanks on how shields work, whats the parameters they use and so on. Experienced commander explaining this would help too (and the explanation can be added to wiki for all commanders who want to invent they own shield systems).
Honor Harrington? Well, David Weber is probably one of the best sci-fi writer these days and his Honor Harrington universe is really great. Keep in mind though, that it uses absolutely different (and Kovin would say more realistic) system : When superdreadnought meets 100 fighters, or 500 hundred, or 10-20 battlecruisers (old design, not the new Pod version), these fighters wont post a thread, as their weaker warheads can't penetrate its massive armor. Therefore, the only thing that can kill SuperDreadnought is lots, lots of missiles with very heavy warheads. Of course, there are other classes, like destroyers, cruisers, even new generation fighters, but fighters are usable against ships up to battlecruiser class, maybe, big maybe, even battleship.
Also keep in mind how many missiles and projectiles they put into space simultaneously. 500000 missiles shot in one salvo, from "Peep" ships? Tracking, shooting down (and there is no laser missiledefence in Spring)... that is too many objects to track, draw, compute collisions etc, for todays PC. Also, one mothership class superdreadnought can carry up to 100 or 200 (depends if you are Manti or Peep) fighters. Overkill.
Rapid firing weapons? FF has rapid firing weapons. Flak guns, miniguns, gattlings, fast AA laser arrays, all is here. And all weapons now fire two times faster, and Kovin thinks it looks better now. But keep in mind it adds to CPU usage too.
Honor Harrington? Well, David Weber is probably one of the best sci-fi writer these days and his Honor Harrington universe is really great. Keep in mind though, that it uses absolutely different (and Kovin would say more realistic) system : When superdreadnought meets 100 fighters, or 500 hundred, or 10-20 battlecruisers (old design, not the new Pod version), these fighters wont post a thread, as their weaker warheads can't penetrate its massive armor. Therefore, the only thing that can kill SuperDreadnought is lots, lots of missiles with very heavy warheads. Of course, there are other classes, like destroyers, cruisers, even new generation fighters, but fighters are usable against ships up to battlecruiser class, maybe, big maybe, even battleship.
Also keep in mind how many missiles and projectiles they put into space simultaneously. 500000 missiles shot in one salvo, from "Peep" ships? Tracking, shooting down (and there is no laser missiledefence in Spring)... that is too many objects to track, draw, compute collisions etc, for todays PC. Also, one mothership class superdreadnought can carry up to 100 or 200 (depends if you are Manti or Peep) fighters. Overkill.
Rapid firing weapons? FF has rapid firing weapons. Flak guns, miniguns, gattlings, fast AA laser arrays, all is here. And all weapons now fire two times faster, and Kovin thinks it looks better now. But keep in mind it adds to CPU usage too.
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 06:03
Rapid fire weapons are not that big of a deal, rapid fire weapons that deform terrain are another matter.
The key problems with FF, is that no one (not even optimus) was making any headway to redo/update the models for this mod. These models had good concepts but they were made for TA and thus most have no bottoms, and are extremely low on polys.
On top of that most people did not like the balance direction Optimus took. To suggest that people liked his view because no one downloaded the other mutators or versions is silly. So few people played FF that you would have massive trouble getting a regular FF game up not to mention a modified FF game. Lets not redebate that but honestly I have a hard time imagining anyone really enjoyed FF's balance under optimus given the shear amount of time it took to get to a point where combat was useful. Not to mention that it was usually a massive attack instead of early skirmishes.
However if someone were to update the models, and take a slightly less porcish approach to the gameplay and add a lot more weapons to the generally larger capital ships and take advantage of the new LUA stuff it could be quite fun..
The key problems with FF, is that no one (not even optimus) was making any headway to redo/update the models for this mod. These models had good concepts but they were made for TA and thus most have no bottoms, and are extremely low on polys.
On top of that most people did not like the balance direction Optimus took. To suggest that people liked his view because no one downloaded the other mutators or versions is silly. So few people played FF that you would have massive trouble getting a regular FF game up not to mention a modified FF game. Lets not redebate that but honestly I have a hard time imagining anyone really enjoyed FF's balance under optimus given the shear amount of time it took to get to a point where combat was useful. Not to mention that it was usually a massive attack instead of early skirmishes.
However if someone were to update the models, and take a slightly less porcish approach to the gameplay and add a lot more weapons to the generally larger capital ships and take advantage of the new LUA stuff it could be quite fun..
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 06:45
Heres my take on the problems you listed:Fanger wrote:Rapid fire weapons are not that big of a deal, rapid fire weapons that deform terrain are another matter.
The key problems with FF, is that no one (not even optimus) was making any headway to redo/update the models for this mod. These models had good concepts but they were made for TA and thus most have no bottoms, and are extremely low on polys.
On top of that most people did not like the balance direction Optimus took. To suggest that people liked his view because no one downloaded the other mutators or versions is silly. So few people played FF that you would have massive trouble getting a regular FF game up not to mention a modified FF game. Lets not redebate that but honestly I have a hard time imagining anyone really enjoyed FF's balance under optimus given the shear amount of time it took to get to a point where combat was useful. Not to mention that it was usually a massive attack instead of early skirmishes.
However if someone were to update the models, and take a slightly less porcish approach to the gameplay and add a lot more weapons to the generally larger capital ships and take advantage of the new LUA stuff it could be quite fun..
New, s3o models should be first priority; this time, the scale also needs to differentiate more between each class of ships; Tired suggested we experiment with epic scaling
FF has become far less porcy than OTA FF, to the point where porc is pretty much pointless. That needs to be fixed, and a big part would be to allow the large battlestations to be built in space again .
Fighter behavior needs to be fixed: currently fighters have problems with engaging just about anything. Also, ships should really be behaving like seaplanes and have the ability to land on water when giving the Stop command.
Use the CEG.
Aegis is working on morphing via lua, so no doubt that will become a part of gameplay in the future.
Just a common reply
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 09:04
Well, models and retexturing is on the list, really. Keep in mind its just Kovin and Aegis working, and Kovin don't know a thing about modeling and texturing, so he has to learn it first. And, unfortunately, he sucks in everything that has anything to do with graphic or sound.
More Porcy? MORE? One of the first thing Kovin and Aegis did (OK, the *first* thing) was to increase the battle speed and make porcying less effective. Its the main thing other commanders don't like about FF, they say its too long and porcy. Maybe thats one of the reason battlestations are no longer orbital.
Fighter problems? Please specify, they work as far as I know.
Sea-based ships? Good idea. Just one thing: How they will cross asteroids or other "landmass"? Keep in mind Final Frontier units can descend from space and fight on planet surface. That would be absolutely impossible with sea-based ships.
Kovin don't what CEG means, sorry. And yes, Aegis is working on next generation morphing script, among other things. Shields are on the list too. Pretty high on the list. Basic Spring shields won't do that - they are always spherical and FF units are often long, but slim. Looks bad, trust me, tested.
More weapons is good idea, but again, scripting and modeling takes time. And some units already have many weapons (look at BA or other TA-based mods, most units have one weapon only and much more people are playing them).
So, what will be changed first? Morphing script, probably. Much more morphable units, and some of them with several options. Then shields. Can't say how long this will take, first to write shield script and then decide how strong shield units should have and if it will be done together with reduced HP, etc. Will need testing to balance this one. Balance changes... well, thats harder, they will be done basically when someone finds one or more units are worthless or too powerfull, or completely changing unit values - for example if there will be BtFF mutator.
More Porcy? MORE? One of the first thing Kovin and Aegis did (OK, the *first* thing) was to increase the battle speed and make porcying less effective. Its the main thing other commanders don't like about FF, they say its too long and porcy. Maybe thats one of the reason battlestations are no longer orbital.
Fighter problems? Please specify, they work as far as I know.
Sea-based ships? Good idea. Just one thing: How they will cross asteroids or other "landmass"? Keep in mind Final Frontier units can descend from space and fight on planet surface. That would be absolutely impossible with sea-based ships.
Kovin don't what CEG means, sorry. And yes, Aegis is working on next generation morphing script, among other things. Shields are on the list too. Pretty high on the list. Basic Spring shields won't do that - they are always spherical and FF units are often long, but slim. Looks bad, trust me, tested.
More weapons is good idea, but again, scripting and modeling takes time. And some units already have many weapons (look at BA or other TA-based mods, most units have one weapon only and much more people are playing them).
So, what will be changed first? Morphing script, probably. Much more morphable units, and some of them with several options. Then shields. Can't say how long this will take, first to write shield script and then decide how strong shield units should have and if it will be done together with reduced HP, etc. Will need testing to balance this one. Balance changes... well, thats harder, they will be done basically when someone finds one or more units are worthless or too powerfull, or completely changing unit values - for example if there will be BtFF mutator.
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 09:09
Sorry, that wasn't really clear. 
Fighters have the nasty problem of colliding into big ships before attack, and getting stuck sometimes as well. Corvettes don't have this problem.
Defense is virtually useless in most cases, and many maps don't have enough area to build space station since stations are where the metal is at. That, and it doesn't makes sense.
I don't mean sea based units, go and play some OTA FF. In OTA, all ships were seaplanes, allowing them to go into a "standby" mode and land when giving the Stop command. They seemed to land on the space, but not in the water since in OTA you could do stuff like that. The best way to emulate that here would be to give them the tag that lets planes land on the surface of the water.
Fighters have the nasty problem of colliding into big ships before attack, and getting stuck sometimes as well. Corvettes don't have this problem.
Defense is virtually useless in most cases, and many maps don't have enough area to build space station since stations are where the metal is at. That, and it doesn't makes sense.
I don't mean sea based units, go and play some OTA FF. In OTA, all ships were seaplanes, allowing them to go into a "standby" mode and land when giving the Stop command. They seemed to land on the space, but not in the water since in OTA you could do stuff like that. The best way to emulate that here would be to give them the tag that lets planes land on the surface of the water.
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 09:21
actually he best way would be to set the airhoverfactor so they never land, just hover in-place above the land
Just another reply... again
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 10:37
Not enough place to build strong defences? Well, Kovin like it, basically, it means strong attack will go through. Keep you from porcing a bit. Attackers still take damage, sometimes big one. It encourages fleet battles and not defence wars. Kovin will think about that "water landing or airhover" thingy, OK? Can't promise more, need to test what exactly it does.
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 14:23
"No one" is not fully true. But as there was no one ELSE doing something for FF some time ago, I stopped remoddeling FF units.Fanger wrote:
The key problems with FF, is that no one (not even optimus) was making any headway to redo/update the models for this mod. These models had good concepts but they were made for TA and thus most have no bottoms, and are extremely low on polys.
Here is what I finished, I think last year (?):
Core Command Cruiser ("old" doesn't refer to the original model
):http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann// ... om-new.jpg
Core Lvl.1 Builder:
http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann//TA/corcsc.jpg
Core Lvl.2 Builder:
http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann//TA/coracss.jpg
Core Lvl.1 Metal Extractor:
http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann//TA/coremex.jpg
Core Lvl.2 Metal Extractor:
http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann//TA/cormexl2.jpg
Core Solar:
http://home.arcor.de/juergen_bechmann//TA/corsolar.jpg
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 14:33
very nice... -wanders off to steal the solar collector idea-
Recruiting
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 15:06
Azaremoth, with the quality of the models Kovin and Aegis saw... do you want to be part of a team? Another modeler is more then welcome. BTW, you can contact Kovin via PM or ICQ 299505018.
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 15:47
model idea shamelessly stolen
Re: Recruiting
Posted: 02 Sep 2007, 17:09
Do you always talk in third person about yourself? Your highness!Kovin wrote: BTW, you can contact Kovin via PM or ICQ 299505018.
In principle I would love to participate in a FF project, but I am a modeler with very little time. Thus progress would be quite slow...^^ True, true - they look like twinsPressure Line wrote: model idea shamelessly stolen
