Absolute Annihilation 2.11

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 16:40

Pxtl wrote:Well, it would put L1 fighter strength closer in line with the rest of L1 unit strength - after all, there's a damn short list of L1 units that, dollar-for-power, hold a candle to their L2 counterparts.

Except the L1 fighters can't. Try a fight with some L1 fighters against some L2 fighters and you'll quickly see what I mean. Even against ground attack aircraft (IE, pretty much every other aircraft out there) the L2 fighters are significantly better than the L1 fighters. Most people just don't bother to build them, because they invest in the L2 plant to try for a quick finish.

As for people not building AA, I think that's mostly a playstyle thing. I know Min3mat loves to remind people about it when reviewing replays. I agree with him. It's a bad habit acquired by playing people that don't diversify. Most players don't really make use of their L1 air plant, so you usually have time to throw up some AA by the time you see the air swarm coming in L2.

Of course, when you're playing against someone who does use their L1 air plant, that doesn't work so well. Bombers FTW. Especially since the first thing most people crank out of it after a few Bombers/Bladewings/Peepers is a small fighter mob.

Kixxe · Post by **Kixxe** » 22 Aug 2006, 16:48

Btw, are the Antiair k-bots gonna have some kind of flack weapon? A nerfed version? something? cuz just missiles... thats kinda pointless... >.>

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 22 Aug 2006, 17:24

One thing that irritates me a bit:

i send it a group of brawlers, i see a flakker, what to i do, return or kill the flak
in AA i just got in and kill the flak

IMO flakkers should be scary things for gunships, and they should try to find a other path or something

Also flak resistant gunships are a bit over the top i think?

Also why the hell are Mobile flakkers more cost effective then normal flakkers?

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 17:43

NOiZE wrote: i send it a group of brawlers, i see a flakker, what to i do, return or kill the flak
in AA i just got in and kill the flak

How large is this group of Brawlers?

Also flak resistant gunships are a bit over the top i think?

Not really. LRMTs still pwn them and they're significantly less able to take advantage of a hole created by a Peeper swarm. Fighters pwn them too. And they're hella expensive.

Also why the hell are Mobile flakkers more cost effective then normal flakkers?

They are? Last I checked, I thought they were considerably less cost-effective.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 22 Aug 2006, 17:48

Egarwaen wrote:
NOiZE wrote: i send it a group of brawlers, i see a flakker, what to i do, return or kill the flak
in AA i just got in and kill the flak
How large is this group of Brawlers?

5 - 6 brawlers easily kill a flak

Egarwaen wrote:
Also flak resistant gunships are a bit over the top i think?
Not really. LRMTs still pwn them and they're significantly less able to take advantage of a hole created by a Peeper swarm. Fighters pwn them too. And they're hella expensive.

Still it doesn't really promote strategy, it promotes Spamming them late game IMO.

Egarwaen wrote:
Also why the hell are Mobile flakkers more cost effective then normal flakkers?
They are? Last I checked, I thought they were considerably less cost-effective.

ARMFLAK Flakker Anti-air Flak Gun
Type: 4
--
Speed: 0
Range: 770
Hitpoints: 1574
Cost: 769 Metal 17425 Energy
---WEAPONS---
ARMFLAK_GUN DPS: 132.727 AOE: 96 ReloadTime 0.55

DPS: 132.727
96
DPS Per Cost: 2.75453
Hitpoints Per Cost: 3.26658
Estimated Overall value: 196.611

ARMYORK Phalanx Anti-Air Flak Vehicle
Type: 3
--
Speed: 56.4
Range: 800
Hitpoints: 1510
Cost: 425 Metal 8510 Energy
---WEAPONS---
BOGUS_MISSILE DPS: 2 AOE: 24 ReloadTime 0.5
NOWEAPON DPS: 1 AOE: 4 ReloadTime 1
MOBILEFLAK DPS: 83.8 AOE: 70 ReloadTime 0.75

DPS: 86.8
DPS Per Cost: 3.40259
Hitpoints Per Cost: 5.91925
Estimated Overall value: 1122.37

And mobile flakkers also have the advantage of being mobile!

And again you can check the stats yourself right here:

http://members.home.nl/sangers/ModStatsAA211.txt

PS

I hope Caydr updates his own website so everybody can always easily look up stats. Instead of talking about how they feel about the mod. it's better to discuss the numbers IMO!

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 18:00

Oh. Note that the DPS-per-cost figures for flak probably aren't accurate. A lot of the damage from Flak against a gunship swarm comes from the gunships chain-exploding, so the larger AoE of the stationary flak actually boosts its DPS by a lot.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 22 Aug 2006, 18:14

Egarwaen wrote:Oh. Note that the DPS-per-cost figures for flak probably aren't accurate. A lot of the damage from Flak against a gunship swarm comes from the gunships chain-exploding, so the larger AoE of the stationary flak actually boosts its DPS by a lot.

Still the difference is only small in AoE so it won't make the stationary flakker much better then the mobile one...

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 18:21

NOiZE wrote:Still the difference is only small in AoE so it won't make the stationary flakker much better then the mobile one...

Almost 40% bigger radius (?). That translates to a lot of extra area.

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:02

5 - 6 brawlers easily kill a flak

5 - 6 Peewee's easily kill an LLT...

BigSteve · Post by **BigSteve** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:05

a flak backed up with 4 or 5 defenders will take out 5-6 brawlers im sure, increasing flaks effectiveness will pretty much render brawlers or rapiers useless imo, especially as LR towers are so effective 5-6 brawlers should be able to kill 1 flakker, its 6 v 1
^^

To me flak is used more to reduce a bunch of brawlers health to a level where they can easily be killed by other aa, I always but an anti swarm and a few defenders near my flaks and that deters all but the largest of brawler swarms.

Flak is totally and utterly fine, it works great.

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:12

Flak seems intended to punish people who air-swarm, not as a 100% effective gunship counter. Flak turrets are actually pretty nasty against any kind of air swarm.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:16

Its TA. Units arent supposed to be built in singles. What dumbnuts build a singlew flak tower to protect his whole base?

Day · Post by **Day** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:22

dragon thats not the point

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:31

solution
LRMT need some sort of nerf now that peepers suck my balls. Preferably cost and/or slight changes to reload time
Flak and Mobile flak needs readjusting, sure it looks pretty but lets face it its pretty useless atm, low range and the damage it does isn't even that significant considering flak is almost useless against other airplanes. I suggest giving flak towers slightly more HP and increasing their damage they deal by a good 20% and rebalancing mobile flakkers to also have a good bit of HP and more potent flak weapon.

yes i know t1 fighters pwn ass. yes they are getting rebalanced next vsn (as well as a load of other stuff O_o).
I'm just saying that flak is pretty much a counter to gunships and gunships only so it really should be better.
+the mobile flakker / stationary flakker balance doesn't make sense

This is my opinion anyway...maybe a better way to buf the flakkers would be lowering their buildtime as that is hell important late game.
I'm holding strong on giving mobile flakkers a buff though, defensive brawlies are v hard to counter atm.

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:37

Caydr post us a changelog of your plans, were getting insane over here, we need some real stuff to talk about!

Cabbage · Post by **Cabbage** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:40

FLakkers are fine as they are, 3 flakkers can decimate a laerge brawlie swarm without backup, thats more than adequte. And saying they're useless for dealing with bombers fighters is plain wrong, they decimate those aswell, you just have to place them ahead of important structures like fusions (likely bomber targets).

NOiZE · Post by **NOiZE** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:45

Cabbage wrote:FLakkers are fine as they are, 3 flakkers can decimate a laerge brawlie swarm without backup, thats more than adequte. And saying they're useless for dealing with bombers fighters is plain wrong, they decimate those aswell, you just have to place them ahead of important structures like fusions (likely bomber targets).

so you plan to cover every spot of your base with 3 flakkers?

Egarwaen · Post by **Egarwaen** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:47

NOiZE wrote:so you plan to cover every spot of your base with 3 flakkers?

Just the important bits. For the rest, you have fighter patrols and regular AA.

Dragon45 · Post by **Dragon45** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:47

No, i plan to cover my base with a mixture of Flakkers, missile units, fighters, and Mercuries.

The ground/airbalance is fine argh why screw with it.

Min3mat · Post by **Min3mat** » 22 Aug 2006, 19:52

well if he is going to royally fuck up AA's balance with airdrops and cheaper air facs why the hell not go all the way

Spring RTS Engine

Absolute Annihilation 2.11