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Swift stole my words, but I'd like to add: Just because it's the fastest solution, dosn't mean it's the best one.

Zoombie wrote:Swift stole my words, but I'd like to add: Just because it's the fastest solution, dosn't mean it's the best one.

This is always the way it works, violence is always either the most effective possible solution but the slowest, or the fastest possible solution but the least effective. If I consider it a problem that terrorists potentially could kill me then I could go out and kill them all, no terrorists = zero chance of dying, very effective, but seriously... it's never going to actually happen. If I consider it a problem that overall on a global scale many many people are in horrible living conditions and are wrongfully killed, then I can violently force the worst offenders out of power and take control myself, but 100s of thousands of people will die in the process and the aftermath, the solution quickly attacks the source of the problem, but it does so at a cost that is equal to that which made me take the violent action the first place.

Violence is innately hypocritical. The worst evil one can enact on another is likely a violent evil, therefore the only objectively right use of violence is against an objective evil. And the fact of the matter is there is virtually no such thing as an objectively evil individual person, let alone an objectively evil people group. Therefore, in the real world planet earth, the best way to be evil is to pursue the destruction of those you view as evil.

...which just mainly hurts soldiers and their families, who may or may not be all that supportive of the war in the first place.

The fact remains that they willingly joined the US Armed forces in the first place. It is a volunteer force, not a conscripted force, and by signing the dotted line they effectively agree to take on any responsibility for the organization they have become a lackey of.

You have no right to violence... really ever...

Tell that to the 200,000 dead Iraqis, 1 million dead Vietnamese, etc.

as soon as you militarize you invite the right of anyone who disagrees with you to violently quell you.

Unfortunately, imperialism has been "quelling" people for decades, and I can make the honest claim that my violence is left-wing reactionary, a side-effect of imperialism. They invited violent upheavel, not I. They have chosen violence as the only viable solution, not I.

This is always the way it works... etc etc etc

Your perspective is a very limited and naive (though slightly better cultured than most) of the social relations that lead to violent acts. It is hypocritical to blatantly denounce the violence unleashed upon Iraq by unleashing your own violence against the original instigators, if you take it at face value, which you have. It is not hypocritical, however, to protest an imperialistic invasion with acts of violent resistance, civil disobedience and insurrection. The way our society has been constructed and formed, this is one of the only options available to us to promote real change, particularly in the United States, where "democracy" has led to a two-party dictatorship in which two incredibly similar groups convince the people that they are drastically different, in an effort to placate their need for believing they have control, believing they have a say. They don't. You don't. I don't. Only by confronting the social conditions we are all slaved to at the most basic level, through (mass) insurrection, can we exercise any realistic form of self-determination over the beauraucratic upper class who are the only ones with any real freedom and control.

This concept of "violence being inherently wrong" goes against every factual aspect of human existance. If not for violence, all of the modern world may well be speaking German right now and reciting paragraphs from Mein Kampf every morning in school. In the same reguard, if not for violence, Hitler would never have done what he did, but we can not disreguard our only means of defending our freedom because of some utopian fairy-tale hope that in doing so we will cause a spontaneous and universal reshaping of human society in the blink of an eye. A peaceful approach to Hitler was attempted -- we know that today as the catastrophy that was Neville Chamberlain.

Violence is needed. Not because I have decided it, but because my enemies have.

right, so what your saying is..

Because my government has gotten itself in an ill concieved occupation of a middle eastern country, based on incorrect information. In addition they also executed the whole thing incompetently. Your saying because of that I should launch attacks on military institutions in protest.

Yes that makes sense, Anyone who disagrees with the iraq war just wants our TROOPS to come back home, so ATTACKING, our TROOPS in order to do that is COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. People in this country are not angry at our government for supposed imperialist doctrine against foreign countries. Were angry about the Iraq war because American soldiers are being killed for what amounts to next to no good reason. So by blowing up other soldiers to protest the fact that we dont want the soldiers in Iraq to get killed seems kinda, I dunno retarded.

OH and by the way, THIS IS NOT TAU, take your stupid extremist political bullshit and stuff it up your ass..

CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS SHIT, IT GETS US NOWHERE...

Were angry about the Iraq war because American soldiers are being killed for what amounts to next to no good reason.

The news get all hot about ONE dead american but don't give much of a shit about all the other who die a useless death in much higher numbers. As if those lives had more "weight". It's about 50k to 100k people of the civil population each year which die a useless death. Apparently they're only good for statistics while those poor american soldiers who had a choice to make get all hyped up. I mean you can quit the army or not? They knew what was coming...

That's just one of the reasons why I don't watch or read the news anymore.

CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS SHIT, IT GETS US NOWHERE...

Agreed, even thoug I was doing the opposite.

Fanger wrote:OH and by the way, THIS IS NOT TAU,

I do this for the greater good.

WE GET IT, YOU HATE AMERICA!!! THIS IS THE THIRD GODDAMN THREAD THATS TURNED INTO AMERICA BASHING!!! IM BLOODY SICK OF THIS SHIT!!!

Im just gonna quote myself from the other one of those threads:

j5mello wrote:this is exactly why political discussion needs to stay the Fuck away from these boards.

And Yeah the US has fucked up. Pretty big time. We have gotten ourselves into a no win situation. We leave, the world calls us cowards, says we are abandoning the Iraqis and Iraq itself slips into civil war or anarchy. We stay our people die, maybe we make some progress and the world complains about us being imperialistic but in the end if we stay, we stay forever.

In the end (and back somewhat on point to the original topic) military personnel are caught in the crosshairs... tbh i could care less about my government. People that high up do what they deem necessary and short of counrty wide revolution not much is going change. Rather im going to support my troops. Cause in the end. They are the ones getting shot. they are the ones losing limbs and losing lives. and it sucks. All of you people who claim that americans should do this or americans should do that i have a suggestion: Get a petition together. A world wide one. get as many signatures as you can. Then send it to the UN or the President. See what it does. My bet, nothing but at least you did something rather than sitting here complaing about how everything america does is wrong or bad or XYZ. Cause in the end talk is cheap, actions cost more, but giving ones life is the ultimate price.

Oh and Spiked im pretty sure if you were joining the US Military you wouldn't be spouting this crap... in fact if the positions were switched you would be screaming at the person who suggested this.

plz can we just ban all political discussions on this forum. If you people really wanna discuss this topic there have to got to be thousands of other sites to do this on. While i concede that this is the offtopic section of the forum, policitical discussions just cause problems and achieve nothing.

Wait a second, Spiked.

If I understand the philosophy you shared with me... the workers are forced to take jobs by the bourgeoise; they do not have a choice in it because they must work to eat, etc.

Why are military personnel any different? Were they not forced to take this job by the establishment? Did they really have any choice in the matter?

Your philosophy continues to confuse me.

lets play hangman! begins with
L__K
no takers?

LOCK!!!!

I WIN!!

Min3mat wrote:lets play hangman! begins with
L__K
no takers?

My guess is L-CAEK

Second guess would be lock

EDIT: j5, i won in spirit.

LOLK!

locking threads really pisses me off. its stupid, if a discussion is over people stop posting. locking it is just the admins playing with their E-muscles.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:people stop posting.

In politics on a forum?
New to the informationuberhighway?

When the discussion is over, the party begins.

no.. it prevents attention whoring morons, from continuing to argue retardation in the forum, and also demonstrates what is acceptable to talk about..

I don't want it locked until Spiked answers my question, tbh.

right, so what your saying is..

What I'm saying is that imperialism should be combatted by more than a bunch of whiny piss-ant anarchist kids marching down a safe street in the middle of some North American city.

Anyone who disagrees with the iraq war just wants our TROOPS to come back home

Wrong.

Oh and Spiked im pretty sure if you were joining the US Military you wouldn't be spouting this crap...

Unfortunately, I am unable to share with you my affiliation with any nation's military to protect my own security! Sufficed to say, you are wrong.

WE GET IT, YOU HATE AMERICA!!!

I do not hate America, I hate imperialism.

Why are military personnel any different?

Military personelle are different because they are the armed tools of imperialism and bourgeoisie "oppression". Yes, a lot of them are poor workers or minorities who have no other choice but to be "bought off" by the military, and in a perfect world none of them would need be hurt, but unfortunately this world is far from perfect. They have signed the dotted line and picked up the weapons of imperialism, just as I have picked up the weapons of resistance, and there's no way around that.

So, Fanger, talking about politics isn't "acceptable", hm? You would have us all simply accept the status quo, never question, never resist, hm? People like you are exactly the reason people like me exist.

discriminatingly banned by decimator

Rofl!

All of MY training comes from BF2!

Suicide jeeps FTW!

You might consider the fact that fewer than 3000 US soldiers have died in iraq. That number is astoundingly low, and speaks to the professionalism and skill of our armed forces.

That number is the lowest of any war in history.

The thing that rubs my ass is that in high schools, morons are teaching kids that more US soldiers have died in Iraq than died in World War 2. Honestly, how stupid do you have to be the believe that?

@ SS

Any fucktard that douses himself with gasoline and then proceeds to go down in a flame of "glory" is an idiot. Period.