Spring RTS Engine

feel free to grab the script bit snipa. you will find it in the rgm79 script for sure.

Thanks, you help so much

Having finally gotten around to playing with the test version a bit, I have the following feedback:

Please make it so the Zeon buildings don't scream "SIEG ZEON!" whenever I click on one. I don't need Gharma Zabi holding a pep rally inside my mexes.

To me, it sounds too, echoish, I dunno, it gets annoying kinda fast...


Like I have always said, its your mod and your decisions

Actually it is ghiren .... but anyway, I have not done the sounds for the mexes... I'll add it to my to do list to complete before release.

Egarwaen wrote:Having finally gotten around to playing with the test version a bit, I have the following feedback:

Please make it so the Zeon buildings don't scream "SIEG ZEON!" whenever I click on one. I don't need Gharma Zabi holding a pep rally inside my mexes.

LMAO I just noticed that, the mex comment

smoth wrote:Actually it is ghiren .... but anyway, I have not done the sounds for the mexes... I'll add it to my to do list to complete before release.

I'd like a less annoying building sound in general please. Ghiren gets on my nerves.

Is it me, or are the epic comms hideously buggy? They're virtually impossible to attack, because you can't get LoS to one without being right on top of it, and then you die. This makes AA turrets absolutely useless against them, because they simply cannot get LoS without being destroyed. Fighter swarms can work, but you need 20+ of the buggers, and most will die in the attempt.

In short, the epic comms are simply unbalanced. Whoever attacks first with their epic comm wins, pretty much, because the other comm takes so much damage while it tries to stop building and turn to attack the invader that it can't survive.

Right now, that has a lot to do with the fact that spring does not do los for large units correctly. There is no reason that the units should pop into view. I am not sure how to correct this outside of larger los for the units.

any thoughts?

also epic comms have been taken out with:
1 dom
20 zaku2s
etc

I am not sure how I can balance them outside of LOS increases which may cause lag. I find it odd that there are times you can be right under it and not see it till you pass the center of the unit.

smoth wrote:Right now, that has a lot to do with the fact that spring does not do los for large units correctly. There is no reason that the units should pop into view. I am not sure how to correct this outside of larger los for the units.

I think the problem is that Spring calculates LoS from the unit's center point or something. So unless you can see the location of the unit's true "radar dot" location, you can't see the unit. Which results in really bizarre behaviour with the White Base and Gaww, because their radius is larger than most units' LoS.

I'm not sure how to fix it either. In the meantime, I'll try to get a playtest report with regular comms.

Edit: Also, the TinyComms mutator has no side icons.

Edit2: And doesn't work at all. Dependency on the wrong file or smth.

yeah, sorry about that. it needs to be changed in the test version. I am setting up a private forum right now and I cannot get to it immediately.

Playtest report:

- Feddie tanks are disgustingly OP, but you apparently know this already.

- The "message" noise needs to be replaced. It sounds like it's coming from behind me or something, which is really distracting.

- The epic comms don't work badly as long as everyone agrees to be defensive with them. If you can get a bunch of AA units under one, it dies fast.

- Assaulting up hills "feels" really hard in this mod. I'm not sure why. This makes some maps like Center Rock, which would otherwise be excellent for it due to the mix of land, water, and hills, feel much more porc-y than they do in AA or (from what I've seen, I need to play it more) EE. Part of this could be the LoS issue again - units can fire at you with LoS weapons like beam rifles but you can't see them (even on radar!) because of the way Spring handles hills.

Perhaps its worth increasing the LoS ranges a bit (to maybe 1.25x or 1.5x beam rifle range?) and see what happens? Then adjust radar and jammers appropriately.

- I really like the economy set-up. I'm not sure if it's better to build more factories or have builders assist, I must remember to check that. My reflex is to use builders to assist, which might be wrong. But it's very easy to learn and manage, a definite improvement over AA's rather esoteric economy.

- Doms rock. j5mello managed to hit me with a swarm of them, and they hurt. The RX-78-2 is also acceptably uber.

- The "Zeon Bunker" does not sound like a factory. This left me briefly mystified as to where I built many of the cooler Zeon units!

Had a preliminary run to test it for KAI compatibility, on 1.0something. Didnt have time to test the gameplay much (working on FF atm) the scripts are pretty nice, however the defenses really put me off, a cube with a turret on top isnt your final design i hope?

The cube is a block of concrete. The defenses don't look awkward when used jointly with the walls.

ow it makes sense now (ais dont build walls so thats why). thought there must have been some reason for it!

Egarwaen wrote: - Feddie tanks are disgustingly OP, but you apparently know this already.

Aun and I were discussing this, any thoughts on what could make them more reasonable? As in move slower, damage less etc?

Egarwaen wrote:- The "message" noise needs to be replaced. It sounds like it's coming from behind me or something, which is really distracting.

Hmm, I'll have to see what I can do about that.

Egarwaen wrote:- The epic comms don't work badly as long as everyone agrees to be defensive with them. If you can get a bunch of AA units under one, it dies fast.

Egarwaen wrote:- Assaulting up hills "feels" really hard in this mod. I'm not sure why. ..... Part of this could be the LoS issue again - units can fire at you with LoS weapons like beam rifles but you can't see them (even on radar!) because of the way Spring handles hills.

Try using the transports, I know that sounds cop-out but The mechs were never good at climbing, although... the snipers, rx-78 and NT-1 mechs should have an easier time then most. For everything else try the gunperry and let me know if it is still too akward.

If you are zeon you should be using dodai2s. If you are not then you are missing out.

Egarwaen wrote:Perhaps its worth increasing the LoS ranges a bit (to maybe 1.25x or 1.5x beam rifle range?) and see what happens? Then adjust radar and jammers appropriately.

I can see about it but I am not sure if the game will not lag. I'll try adding an overall +200 sight boost[/quote]

Egarwaen wrote:- I really like the economy set-up. I'm not sure if it's better to build more factories or have builders assist, I must remember to check that. My reflex is to use builders to assist, which might be wrong. But it's very easy to learn and manage, a definite improvement over AA's rather esoteric economy.

I personally don't like con assist and as soon as spring gives me a way to remove it I shall. So I wouldn't recommend getting used to it.

The reason I do not like con-assist is that it does not encorage building more factories. Which, if you only have a few buildings one small raid can wipe out your entire base. You need to have redundancy in this mod.

Egarwaen wrote:- Doms rock. j5mello managed to hit me with a swarm of them, and they hurt. The RX-78-2 is also acceptably uber.

Try some of the high mobility zaku2s they are fun also.

Egarwaen wrote:- The "Zeon Bunker" does not sound like a factory. This left me briefly mystified as to where I built many of the cooler Zeon units!

I can see why that would be confusing. I'll explain, the zeon bases were mostly underground. Most mech construction/repair was done underground. Hence the later stuff is built in a bunker(signifying an underground base)

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote: - Feddie tanks are disgustingly OP, but you apparently know this already.

Aun and I were discussing this, any thoughts on what could make them more reasonable? As in move slower, damage less etc?

Nerf the DPS or maybe the accuracy. Since they're indirect-fire units, they mass really well, so they'll still be viable as support or artillery. The problem right now is that (according to Aun, I think) they have a higher DPS than Zaku IIs and more speed. That seems backward, since pretty much any MS in the anime (any continuity) can own a tank in a 1-on-1 fight.

I didn't test in-depth, but it seems like Zaku II swarms die against equal-resource Feddie Tank swarms, especially with hover trucks. And that's just wrong on so many levels.

Even later on in the game, they're distressingly powerful. A Gelgoog can tear them up if it gets close, but that's a fairly big if.

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote:- The "message" noise needs to be replaced. It sounds like it's coming from behind me or something, which is really distracting.

Hmm, I'll have to see what I can do about that.

The simple fix would be swapping the minimap ping and message received noises. The minimap ping is very subtle but noticeable, while the message received noise is very annoying and distracting.

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote:- Assaulting up hills "feels" really hard in this mod. I'm not sure why. ..... Part of this could be the LoS issue again - units can fire at you with LoS weapons like beam rifles but you can't see them (even on radar!) because of the way Spring handles hills.

Try using the transports, I know that sounds cop-out but The mechs were never good at climbing, although... the snipers, rx-78 and NT-1 mechs should have an easier time then most. For everything else try the gunperry and let me know if it is still too akward.

If you are zeon you should be using dodai2s. If you are not then you are missing out.

Heh, there was a great moment in one of the games today where Aun's (I think) force of Gelgoogs on Dodai-2s hit an equal-size force of Toriares. End result: one Toriares left, zero Gelgoogs.

I know I didn't use the transports much at all. I think that's my "Oldtype" TA playstyle. I'll try using them next time I play, see if that improves things. (It probably wouldn't have against me, as I had the edges of my cliffs lined with AA batteries, but you never know.)

Gelgoogs also seem to climb fairly steep slopes. One of my opponents slipped a bunch of them up a hill on Center Rock that I didn't think could be climbed.

smoth wrote:I personally don't like con assist and as soon as spring gives me a way to remove it I shall. So I wouldn't recommend getting used to it.

The reason I do not like con-assist is that it does not encorage building more factories. Which, if you only have a few buildings one small raid can wipe out your entire base. You need to have redundancy in this mod.

But it also gives you more buildpower that you can use to rebuild. Let's just say it makes sense in TA's game design and leave it at that. I do think that being able to disable con assist is a good idea, as not everyone wants to deal with balancing an economy as complex as TA's.

I do like the fact that the Comm in this mod can throw up a level 1 factory very quickly. I think that could be used for interesting things on larger maps.

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote:- Doms rock. j5mello managed to hit me with a swarm of them, and they hurt. The RX-78-2 is also acceptably uber.

Try some of the high mobility zaku2s they are fun also.

They're fun, but I was having trouble getting enough of them before my enemy had enough defences to make them pretty much pointless. I imagine they'd do much better on a more open map, though.

The RX-78-2 was just plain fun to use. I think one I built outlasted the rest of its group by about 30 seconds and managed to take out two or three Gelgoogs by itself before it was taken out.

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote:- The "Zeon Bunker" does not sound like a factory. This left me briefly mystified as to where I built many of the cooler Zeon units!

I can see why that would be confusing. I'll explain, the zeon bases were mostly underground. Most mech construction/repair was done underground. Hence the later stuff is built in a bunker(signifying an underground base)

I'm even a Gundam fan and I didn't remember that.

How about calling it the "Advanced Mech Hanger"? That seems to make its purpose (building units) clearer, and follows the pattern of the Light Mech Hanger.

A few gameplay questions:

- Some of the first factory units obviously remain useful throughout the game. IE, the Recon Zaku or the Hover truck. Others seem to become obsolete fairly quickly, like the Zaku II.

The Zeon unit progress seems fairly clear: Zaku I -> Zaku II + Zaku IIRL -> T2. But are the Zaku II+ and Zaku IIRL+ still useful in T2+?

For the Feddies, I can't see any basic mechs that are still useful in T2+ except for the Sniper. The RGM-79s seem to become totally obsolete, though the Type 61 is probably still useful?

- What's a typical assault force size? In AA, anything less than 15 units or so was pretty much a waste by the mid-game. I'm not sure if this game encourages smaller or larger forces. I'd think smaller from the Wiki, but the fixed defences seemed horrifyingly powerful in-game, with four rocket towers on a hilltop tearing apart quite a lot of Zeon mechs. Maybe the attacker just didn't use enough spotting?

- The Core Booster did not seem particularly effective against beam-equipped mechs. And by that I mean that a force of about ten Zeon mechs with maybe three Gelgoogs killed five of them before they got more than a handful of shots off, doing totally inconsequential damage.

- How fast is teching supposed to be? On Center Rock with Epic Comms, I found that I could get the T2 factory by around the 5-10 minute mark without harming my ability to mass forces. Is that right, or is that map too metal-happy for this mod?

On t61s:
True however, it should be considered that the federation did feild mostly those in the major battles and won. I will see what I can do to nerf the tanks. I am thinking accuracy reduction and a damage nerf.

Egarwaen wrote: I didn't test in-depth, but it seems like Zaku II swarms die against equal-resource Feddie Tank swarms, especially with hover trucks. And that's just wrong on so many levels.

were the hovertrucks outrunning the zakus? I'll gimp thier hp .

Egarwaen wrote:I
The simple fix would be swapping the minimap ping and message received noises. The minimap ping is very subtle but noticeable, while the message received noise is very annoying and distracting.

I have some short beeps I may try. if they do not work. I will switch the sounds.

Egarwaen wrote: Heh, there was a great moment in one of the games today where Aun's (I think) force of Gelgoogs on Dodai-2s hit an equal-size force of Toriares. End result: one Toriares left, zero Gelgoogs.

when you say an equal force do you mean by cost or numbers?

Egarwaen wrote:Gelgoogs also seem to climb fairly steep slopes. One of my opponents slipped a bunch of them up a hill on Center Rock that I didn't think could be climbed.

gelgoogs have the same movement type as a gundam :).

Egarwaen wrote: But it also gives you more buildpower that you can use to rebuild. Let's just say it makes sense in TA's game design and leave it at that. I do think that being able to disable con assist is a good idea, as not everyone wants to deal with balancing an economy as complex as TA's.

I do like the fact that the Comm in this mod can throw up a level 1 factory very quickly. I think that could be used for interesting things on larger maps.

I understand in other mods but how is relevent here?

Egarwaen wrote: They're fun, but I was having trouble getting enough of them before my enemy had enough defences to make them pretty much pointless. I imagine they'd do much better on a more open map, though.

The RX-78-2 was just plain fun to use. I think one I built outlasted the rest of its group by about 30 seconds and managed to take out two or three Gelgoogs by itself before it was taken out.

yeah open maps are where the zaku2 high shines. It is funny that people over look the rx-78 for the alex. I personally Like it more.

Egarwaen wrote: I'm even a Gundam fan and I didn't remember that.

How about calling it the "Advanced Mech Hanger"? That seems to make its purpose (building units) clearer, and follows the pattern of the Light Mech Hanger.

Hmm, I'll have to think about it. That is somewhat misleading.

Egarwaen wrote: - Some of the first factory units obviously remain useful throughout the game. IE, the Recon Zaku or the Hover truck. Others seem to become obsolete fairly quickly, like the Zaku II.

The zakuII is handy later because it can be build quickly... outside the enemies base then sending tons of them at a heavy side will distract the enemy. You are also missing the gouf, which can paralyze anything in the mod(outside of comms).

Egarwaen wrote:The Zeon unit progress seems fairly clear: Zaku I -> Zaku II + Zaku IIRL -> T2. But are the Zaku II+ and Zaku IIRL+ still useful in T2+?

They should be, but it all depends. I never stop using them because they are cheap. Any time I have won was because I did not neglect the zakus.

Egarwaen wrote:For the Feddies, I can't see any basic mechs that are still useful in T2+ except for the Sniper. The RGM-79s seem to become totally obsolete, though the Type 61 is probably still useful?

rgm79s and rgm79es are only usefull if you are numbers player. Otherwise the sweetspot of federation IS 2nd tier.

Egarwaen wrote: - What's a typical assault force size? In AA, anything less than 15 units or so was pretty much a waste by the mid-game. I'm not sure if this game encourages smaller or larger forces.

In general it depends on what you have built... less then 10 of anything is going to be a waste unless you attack the enemies rear. However for a final assault in order to drive past defenses and crush someone you need 20-60 units depending on what you have. It is really hard to say because the units are all so different and similar.

Egarwaen wrote:I'd think smaller from the Wiki, but the fixed defences seemed horrifyingly powerful in-game, with four rocket towers on a hilltop tearing apart quite a lot of Zeon mechs. Maybe the attacker just didn't use enough spotting?

Possibly, although any level1 unit will lose to defenses. That is just the way I made things.

Egarwaen wrote:- The Core Booster did not seem particularly effective against beam-equipped mechs. And by that I mean that a force of about ten Zeon mechs with maybe three Gelgoogs killed five of them before they got more than a handful of shots off, doing totally inconsequential damage.

The core booster can be devastating to buildings, commanders and straggler squads. Believe me there are times when I think they are too powerful. Beamrifles will always eat air units though. That is just the way it works out.

Egarwaen wrote:- How fast is teching supposed to be?

T2 is suposed to be easy to get because it represents what I feel is the core of the battle units. T3+experementals are also but the later stuff is much more expensive.

T1: swarms and odd little utilities
T2: more solid troops
T3: heavy units in need of support
t4/experementals: Powerfull units that suck at anti-swarm.

Egarwaen wrote:IOn Center Rock with Epic Comms, I found that I could get the T2 factory by around the 5-10 minute mark without harming my ability to mass forces. Is that right, or is that map too metal-happy for this mod?

Yes, it is right... as federation but zeon teir 2 is more expensive on metal(reflecting the zeon struggle after the early loss of odessa) so they have a bit of a slowdown there.

again, it is all about support. Can you get enough resources to support your factories? If the map is high metal that actually helps zeon players more but they are ill-equiped to defend ground when compaired to federation.

An example: the federation turret is indirect fire with tracking. The zeon have a fixed particle gun. This in general means that the federation is going to be better about bunkering in. However, when a zeon player rolls up in a few gallops with troops inside, xamels for support and they then send zakus in with both gallop and xamel cover fire you are in trouble.

Also zeon rules the water, water maps are where zeon will rock federation. however to counter that the federation also rules the air.

smoth wrote:were the hovertrucks outrunning the zakus? I'll gimp thier hp .

Nah, they were just providing spotter services. I think they work really well, actually. I was able to get in some good raiding with them, but they fell apart as soon as some enemy MSes found them.

when you say an equal force do you mean by cost or numbers?

Cost, I think. It's hard to tell in the midst of a game, but I think the early fights were between approximately equal-cost groups. I think they were close to equal numbers.

I understand in other mods but how is relevent here?

Just saying that it makes sense to disable build-assist for this mod, where you want the economy to be as simple as possible.

yeah open maps are where the zaku2 high shines. It is funny that people over look the rx-78 for the alex. I personally Like it more.

I didn't try the Alex, but the AoE on the RX-78-2's rifle was very nice.

The zakuII is handy later because it can be build quickly... outside the enemies base then sending tons of them at a heavy side will distract the enemy. You are also missing the gouf, which can paralyze anything in the mod(outside of comms).

Yeah, I left the "specialty"/"support" units out of things. I'm looking at build paths for "main combat" units.

One thing I did notice: there was a lot more unit-on-unit combat in this than in any AA game I've ever seen.

They should be, but it all depends. I never stop using them because they are cheap. Any time I have won was because I did not neglect the zakus.

Got it, that makes sense. I suppose they'd be very good at punishing anyone that tries to get too close to your bigger units.

rgm79s and rgm79es are only usefull if you are numbers player. Otherwise the sweetspot of federation IS 2nd tier.

Ah, that makes much more sense. And explains why the Feddie units there are so awesome.

Possibly, although any level1 unit will lose to defenses. That is just the way I made things.

I think that might've been the hill/LoS thing again. On the flat, I think about five (I can't remember exactly) Gelgoogs + Gelgoog Cannons did horrible things to a line of five or six Mega Beam Cannon turrets, and only lost one or two in the process.

The core booster can be devastating to buildings, commanders and straggler squads. Believe me there are times when I think they are too powerful. Beamrifles will always eat air units though. That is just the way it works out.

And that's good. I didn't think about using them on Commanders. Hm. I'll have to try that!

Egarwaen wrote:T1: swarms and odd little utilities
T2: more solid troops
T3: heavy units in need of support
t4/experementals: Powerfull units that suck at anti-swarm.

That makes a lot of sense. Put it in the Wiki article. :)

(Though Doms are pretty good at anti-swarm with the AoE on that bazooka)

Also zeon rules the water, water maps are where zeon will rock federation. however to counter that the federation also rules the air.

I'd noticed that. One of the unfortunate things about Center Rock is that defences tend to be focused on the hills on tier up from the river instead of on the river shore itself. I was hoping that the river would allow for some flanking attacks with hover/amphibious units, but that wasn't the case.

Any maps that you feel work particularly well for this mod?

wow, I don't have to reply in quotes COOL I managed to answer questions and not further confuse! :)

Hmm, as far as maps go...

**s on them are ones I love playing on

In no particular order:

plateau divide **
deserted gully
parched mesa
placid stream **
pathways
longdivision ... ok I am going to stop list forboding maps. Any of his ESP the desert maps play gundam well.
foothils
giant hills and valleys(a bit porcish though)
Absolute zero **
2 contintents remake **
Oki river remake **
moonq20
surrounded grounds **
two seas

mountainseige
If you have 2 on one put the guy who is taking on two players in the lower right.