Spring RTS Engine

Pxtl wrote:Ever played WC1 or 2? Games that focussed on that kind of gameplay? They're mad rushes and nothing else. As fun as "gundams kill everything" sounds, basically the game would be "first player to build a gundam wins" - unless the gundams move slow enough that you take a while to arrive at the enemy base so he can build more before they get there... which hardly sounds like sophisticated gameplay.

Which is why you need tiers of increasingly powerful units. A GM or Zaku II, say, will be able to do a lot of damage... But a force of tanks can cheaply slow one down until you get one of your own to counter it. At which point, your opponent either has to back off before GM + tanks, or bring up more forces to try and continue pushing and risk leaving his base open.

Not superunits so much as powerful units.

The WC2 case you mention, from what I remember of that game, was because only a handful of units could even attack the fliers, so they could go right over anything you could put in their way. In this case, lesser units are a credible threat to larger ones, especially if massed, so they must be dealt with.

Second, a "unit oriented game" doesn't fit with TA's style of capture-and-control of metal points - putting up HLTs and mexxes everywhere just doesn't jive. I'd go for a C&C-style of harvesting - maps focus on reclaimable wreckage, with only minimal metal points. There would have to be heavy use of mobile jammers and recon gear to keep your harvesters defended, and you could even have the Dune-style "scouts sighted enemy Gundams near the resource field, get a transport to pull the harvesters out and get the defenders cloaked".

Why do Spring mods have to religiously follow TA's gameplay design? I'd think the engine would be flexible enough that you could deviate from it by quite a bit.

Egarwaen wrote:Yes, though it should be noted that this is a peculiarity of the first Gundam series. By the time of Zeta, most suits either have "subflight units" or can transform into airborne mobile armor forms.

This isn't zeta, this is 0079-0083 give or take.

Egarwaen wrote:Yes, but mobile suits are, for the most part, designed to fight in space. The fact that they work on the ground at all is kind of a happy accident.

Not at all. There were units produced for specificly ground combat. First gundam focuses on only amuro's part in the war. However, the war was global.

But you've said that your inspiration is mainly 08th MS Team, so the focus on ground battles is understandable. (Interestingly, IIRC, the last battle of 08th MS Team is a very nice demonstration of why superunits suck. )

that being said, I still want to put the giant bullseye that is the apsallus II in. OTA worked weird with units that large.. spring handles it... he he.

Egarwaen wrote: In canon, there was only one RX-78-2 (and a bunch of spare parts) that survived the Zeon attack on Side 7. The "RX" designation means that it's a prototype. The GM has a different model number (RGM-79). They're a similar design, but they're not The Gundam.

There were two or three other RX-78 models (the RX-78-4 and the RX-78-5 that survived in assorted side-stories, but they aren't considered canonical.

True but the rx-79s were called gundam, as was a varient of the aqua gm. Even so GM still means gundam massproduced.

Egarwaen wrote:A more accurate statement would be that radar-guided missiles don't work. The vast majority of missiles used by combat units appear to be "dumb" rockets, fired in massive volleys.

yep, that is why I do not have long range turrets much to the lament of OTA players.

Egarwaen wrote: To be perfectly accurate, Minovsky particles cause radar interference, and create fields that make even visual detection unreliable. These particles can be scattered by anything with a Minovsky reactor, including warships and many kinds of mobile suits and mobile armors. The Zeons aren't the only ones that use these - the Federation does too.

Mobile suits have a large array of sensors, but most are rendered useless or severely hindered by Minovsky particles. The most common combat sensor in the UC continuity is the good, old-fashioned telescope, hooked up to considerable amounts of image analysis and amplification equipment. Even these are unreliable at long ranges, and (as various militaries discover in later series) can be fooled quite easily by inflatable dummies even at combat range under very close observation. (As Char's fleet demonstrates quite spectacularly in Char's Counterattack)

In other words, lots of radar jamming, heavy reliance on visual detection.

YES! THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING! However, zeon was the first to truely utilize it. IF/WHEN I put in warships utilizing minovsky craft system in atmosphere they will have radar jamming. However, early on the zeon were there utilizing it.

Egarwaen wrote: Yeah, but those were assaults on major Zeon or Federation fortresses or fleets. Most of the skirmishes that composed the One Year War were relatively small forces of mobile suits on their own or backing larger forces of conventional cannon fodder. Char's attack on Jaburo, for example, was... What? Three squads of mobile suits?

0079-0083 I am sure that there was more then enough units around. That and I wanted people to have the opportunity to play LARGE battles. On a small map you can definitely play skirmishing ala oyw but that is not what I like to play.

Pxtl wrote:This means that the number of actual Gundams in action is carefully strictly controlled, and the use of special Gundam powers like cloaking and dguns (wasn't there a nuke gundam) must be strictly monitored - the damn things take energy to build, energy to run, and energy to use, and you're on a fixed income. Storage becomes very important. This would encourage just relocating your base - just build mobile storage and some gundams to use the energy, and 90% of your operation is now mobile.

This is not gundam wing. A gundam is only a few steps above a zaku, what made the rx78 powerfull was 2 things:

Amuro Rei
Perceived power

you know egarwean, you really do get what I am going for here. I just wanted to say thanks for the help. I am not good at writing at all.

smoth wrote:Not at all. There were units produced for specificly ground combat. First gundam focuses on only amuro's part in the war. However, the war was global.

There were, but only after the Zeons invaded and went "Hey... These nifty new mobile suit things actually work really well on the ground. I bet they'd work even better if we built ones to work specifically there!"

IIRC, weren't most of the early ground units (the Zaku II variants, for example) just budget versions of the space combat models?

that being said, I still want to put the giant bullseye that is the apsallus II in. OTA worked weird with units that large.. spring handles it... he he.

I wonder how well Spring would handle Big Zam? 37 independent weapons might be a bit much...

True but the rx-79s were called gundam, as was a varient of the aqua gm. Even so GM still means gundam massproduced.

The "Gundam" name seems to be linked to the head type. Gundams have the weird double-eye thing going on, and have bunny ear antennas. GMs have a visor and more traditional antennas. It also seems to be linked to heavier armor - every "Gundam" I can find in the One Year War period seems to have Lunar Titanium, even the RX-79[E]s, which was pretty tough. It could take hits from Zaku MG shells, and in assorted OAVs, we see those ripping up warships like they're made of tissue paper.

YES! THANK YOU FOR UNDERSTANDING! However, zeon was the first to truely utilize it. IF/WHEN I put in warships utilizing minovsky craft system in atmosphere they will have radar jamming. However, early on the zeon were there utilizing it.

Wasn't one of the "big things" that made the Zakus so nasty was that they (and all MS models after them) had Minovsky reactors? This meant that they could make their own jamming, instead of relying on a big ship to do it for them as conventional fighters had to do.

I'm pretty sure that all Mobile Suits scatter Minovsky particles in combat. I know they do in Victory, as they explicitly mention it a couple of times, but I can't remember how that works in the earlier series.

0079-0083 I am sure that there was more then enough units around. That and I wanted people to have the opportunity to play LARGE battles. On a small map you can definitely play skirmishing ala oyw but that is not what I like to play.

That's sensible!

This is not gundam wing. A gundam is only a few steps above a zaku, what made the rx78 powerfull was 2 things:

Amuro Rei
Perceived power

The beam weapons, lunar titanium armor, and powerful engines weren't exactly minor. But Amuro Rei was what made it unstoppable. There's one bit in 0079 where Seyla tries to pilot the Gundam because Bright's pissed off at Amuro, and she gets pwnt by a couple Zakus and a Gouf. Amuro, meanwhile, can wipe out entire squadrons pretty much by himself by the end of 0079.

He's a Newtype after all.

you know egarwean, you really do get what I am going for here. I just wanted to say thanks for the help. I am not good at writing at all.

Thanks. :) I certainly hope I do, as I'm a massive Gundam fan.

Egarwaen wrote:IIRC, weren't most of the early ground units (the Zaku II variants, for example) just budget versions of the space combat models?

Pretty much :)

Egarwaen wrote: I wonder how well Spring would handle Big Zam? 37 independent weapons might be a bit much...

I could whip up a script to make it happen. Just that I cannot make it do the tu-tu of death thing. it would only fire at what was in range of one of it's guns.

Egarwaen wrote: The "Gundam" name seems to be linked to the head type. Gundams have the weird double-eye thing going on, and have bunny ear antennas. GMs have a visor and more traditional antennas. It also seems to be linked to heavier armor - every "Gundam" I can find in the One Year War period seems to have Lunar Titanium, even the RX-79[E]s, which was pretty tough. It could take hits from Zaku MG shells, and in assorted OAVs, we see those ripping up warships like they're made of tissue paper.

???? I thought only the beam rifles were tearing them up????

Wasn't one of the "big things" that made the Zakus so nasty was that they (and all MS models after them) had Minovsky reactors? This meant that they could make their own jamming, instead of relying on a big ship to do it for them as conventional fighters had to do.

I'll have to look it up.

I'm pretty sure that all Mobile Suits scatter Minovsky particles in combat. I know they do in Victory, as they explicitly mention it a couple of times, but I can't remember how that works in the earlier series.

I know the ships can but the suits were not potent enough to really hide.

The beam weapons, lunar titanium armor, and powerful engines weren't exactly minor. But Amuro Rei was what made it unstoppable. There's one bit in 0079 where Seyla tries to pilot the Gundam because Bright's pissed off at Amuro, and she gets pwnt by a couple Zakus and a Gouf. Amuro, meanwhile, can wipe out entire squadrons pretty much by himself by the end of 0079.

He's a Newtype after all.

I wish there was a way to make experience to more then just armor... it would be great to have the rx78 really use it's learning computer.

I suppose I should shut up - I've only seen a few of the gundam cartoons. "War in the Pocket" bored me to tears, "0083" was just too old-fashioned to watch - I only saw the first few episodes. I watched Wing a bit, and have seen a little of the new one... Seed?

either way, our(egarwaen and I) discussion is more fan based. Did my post of the page before this one answer your question though?

smoth wrote:either way, our(egarwaen and I) discussion is more fan based. Did my post of the page before this one answer your question though?

Yes indoody. I'm eager to give it a shot now.

BigSteve wrote:l

???
I get a pipe?

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote: I wonder how well Spring would handle Big Zam? 37 independent weapons might be a bit much...

I could whip up a script to make it happen. Just that I cannot make it do the tu-tu of death thing. it would only fire at what was in range of one of it's guns.

Yeah, and there's really no point unless it can do the tu-tu of death.

smoth wrote:

Egarwaen wrote: The "Gundam" name seems to be linked to the head type. Gundams have the weird double-eye thing going on, and have bunny ear antennas. GMs have a visor and more traditional antennas. It also seems to be linked to heavier armor - every "Gundam" I can find in the One Year War period seems to have Lunar Titanium, even the RX-79[E]s, which was pretty tough. It could take hits from Zaku MG shells, and in assorted OAVs, we see those ripping up warships like they're made of tissue paper.

???? I thought only the beam rifles were tearing them up????

Beam rifles do it really fast. But in MS IGLOO (not canon, but still nifty) we get to see the first battle Zaku IIs get used in. It's not quite as nasty as beam rifles, but they still shred the ships pretty nicely, mainly by attacking bridges, exposed magazines, that kind of thing.

As for the jamming, I can't remember. I know individual suits can jam effectively by the time of Victory, but that's about a century after 0079.

smoth wrote:I wish there was a way to make experience to more then just armor... it would be great to have the rx78 really use it's learning computer.

That would be cool. Or represent the absurd rate at which Newtypes gain ability, but that'd probably be impossible to balance.

Played a couple quick games against AAI on DryRiver. Commentary:

- Bases do fall pretty fast to two or three MSes. Everything but the basic ones also seem to outrange the static defences. This works very nicely.

- I like the tanks. Giving them an early long-range weapon makes them useful.

- The Sniper GMs are just plain fun.

- Still felt like the mod encouraged massing, and DryRiver's not exactly a large map. I was able to get multiple large squads quite easily. It works, though.

- Beam rifles are nasty. Though the faster-firing rifle on the EZ-8 and Gelgoog almost seemed better than the slower-firing rifle on the RX-78-2. (See air balance note)

- Units move really quickly. I approve.

- Air balance might need a bit of rethinking. AAI built a lot of Dodais, and I was having trouble finding units other than the basic L1 mechs that were effective against them. None of the aircraft seem particularly good at AA, though perhaps I just didn't have enough. It felt particularly odd that the RX-78's beam rifle was really horrible against aircraft, while the EZ-8's seemed to chew them up.

- The RX79 PLUS might be a little too effective. It seemed to be good against pretty much everything except beam rifle-equipped MSes, including aircraft and buildings. Even against beam rifle units, they seemed to win if you got two close enough.

I may have to increase the cost on the plus.

AAI worked for you?

FYI, I updated the wiki...
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Gundam_Annihilation

let me know if I need to change any of the format.. I think it has everthing, is there anything I need to add(outside of content and grammar)

smoth wrote:I may have to increase the cost on the plus.

Well, it was just against AAI. It might be balanced for a real multiplayer game, I'll just have to track down someone to play against. But it just seemed very effective.

AAI worked for you?

0.60 went the entire game without crashing. Of course, it wasn't exactly smart. It built loads of Dodais, kept building factories in places that pumped units into dead-ends, and other such mistakes. But it wasn't bad.

FYI, I updated the wiki...
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/wiki/Gundam_Annihilation

let me know if I need to change any of the format.. I think it has everthing, is there anything I need to add(outside of content and grammar)

Looks good. I can do a quick copy edit on it if you want?

I am about to take a shower but I can play you later.

[quote="Egarwaen]
The "Gundam" name seems to be linked to the head type. Gundams have the weird double-eye thing going on, and have bunny ear antennas.
[/quote]
the idea is gundam is a huge mechanized samurai, u can compare gundam head with this's head
http://www.japanese-armor.com/
but since gundam is sooo childish blocky and all have same head they are looks boring imo Jap samurai helm looks better artistic-wise

This is not gundam wing. A gundam is only a few steps above a zaku, what made the rx78 powerfull was 2 things:

Amuro Rei
Perceived power

[/quote]

I believe u mis-spelling 'Char'

lol, char is the man, let's face it he did not need gundam to rock.

(click small pickture for teh biggar pick!)

PEH EYECANDY!
This is the first uvmaped unit of gundam annihilation. and yeah, I added detail to the model. the whole thing took about 6 hours.

Enjoy the teaser shot.

Delta siege is soooo pritty.
Ergh I mean, nice carryall!

More teaser eye crack.

White Base!

The proportions seem a little odd, though. I could swear the wings were smaller and the hanger-legs larger? Maybe my memory's just distorted by the Archangel and other White Base-alikes.

Edit: Hm. Browsing around, it seems to depend on the source. Some of the lineart has longer legs, some has stubby legs. Then again, consistency of artwork was not exactly 0079's selling point...