Spring RTS Engine

Decimator wrote:I've been seeing this too. Many times on smaller maps their commander is knocking on your door with an army of plasma and rocket kbots. Sending your army after their base is not an option as they will just walk into your base and kill everything. And you can't attack their army because the comm will just dgun whatever you send. Meanwhile they start setting up punishers in range of your base and there's not a thing you can do about it. (I play AA almost exclusively)

This is the reason I have come to dislike small, open maps. They are too prone to this sort of situation. Large maps, or rough maps like nightscape do not have this problem.

I'm don't know if we need a comm change, I just wish we had more good large maps.

Analize and target prioritize. You basicly should have an army in early game AA if you expect to win, a dozen or so rocket kbots can take out a HLT with only reasonable losses, LLT's go down easy too. If he has a feild army of rockys out there with his comm and you knowtice him dropping an artillery, then that is when you know you need to counter artillery. The trick to successfully countering an artillery rush is killing an half built punisher at least once. It sets your opponent back in terms of timing quite substantially. If he gets outside your base, ends up with more res then you have, and has a larger army then you just aren't playing very well and you need to restructure your early build to accomidate.

Sorry, but then whats the point in the comander? For instence, when limited to start poss fireing, I always find that my base is overrun by just a hand full of units because quite simplay my base is bigger than the start poses range. the comander is dam vunrable cause hes so easly outranged and got gunned, he only works up close. and he dont have teh hit points to one man army it. If someone has managed to do it against you then you should ask yourself WHY it got into yoru base and fucked you over.

If there sitting him near you choke point and just blasting anything that comes near... sorry but you can just HLT him of the game.

Its actully quite funny, but I think hes under powered. Hes constanly getting betten up by wimp ass units (and several people have pointed out the coms inability to actully take on a well planed rush of weak units).

The fact that he makes a big hole when he blows up... well ok its annoying cause its happened to me, but think about it. You can wander into his base and do the same. and if you cant cause he has HLT why the hell didnt you have HLT. And if it was your com blowing up in your base you were clearly gonna be overrun in anycase... cause no man whos in a winning position should be able to lose there own comander in tehre own base.

Frankly I'm just getting more and more confused here, I cant get how anyone can say hes over powered??

If someone manages to rn to your base and actully build a better one next to yours then shame on you cause you had a head start!! and if hes dgunning your defenses and nipping back into his base... use your own d-gun!! hes just as affraid of lossing his com as you are, or hes so good he dont need it and isnt therfor worrid, inwhich case you need to get that good to.

Blaargg its late and I'm confused, this just sems an odd thread so i psoted some ideas, dont take them ther rong way.

aGorm

How about this, Stop bitching about the commander and leave it the hell alone, Dont change it, dont modify it just leave them and there Dgun the way it is.

Caydr Please dont change it its perfect the way it is so dont change nothing with the commander

death if you don't know how to discuss something then piss off.

Agorm, he's not overpowered, it just all the things you can do with your comm to fuck up a game.


He didn't set up a better base, he just set up a porc spot that nothing lv 1 would get through, and this was on comm ends and dgun limit too (even tho anyone that really knows springs is aware that that doesn't work).

In ta this really wasn't a problem, but spring being the engine that it is poses problems where the comm is concerned.

IMHO comm should be nothing but a defensive and base building (and a damn good one at that) tool. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't be so afraid of someone suggesting change, it's simply up for discussion.

How about this... A radius that the comm can move in. I think this ideas isn't all that good because it would hamper expansion, but soemthing will work. Just think out of the box and realize that spring is a different game.

BTW I think comm would do just as well with a gatling hlt laser instead of the dgun. Easier to aim and more killing power vs lv 1.

I'm not sure why the comm should be the last ditch effort to anything. If a krog walkes into the middle of your base, you obviously did something wrong. However 6 gollies can kill a krog pretty easily.

anyway

Could a specific replay be provided?

For me...expanding with the comm is simply part of my strategy. I for one dont think that you should get rewarded for keeping your comm in the same place the whole game (and guarding the same factory). You can avoid a commander's dgun, with enough micromanagement. If he is reinforced by rocket bots....why didnt you get there faster?

I really do not think that nerfing the commander in anyway is a good thing...I think it would take away, rather than add to the strategy involved.

I would certainly like to see a specific case where comm expansion can be truly seen as unethical...the only issues I see, are if he actually walks into your base or he flies in with a transport.

Hi, Im not really to worried about aggressive comm use as long hes not rushing my base with his d gun.
If someone sets up right outside I usually just let them, wasting metal on a line of static llts than can easily be easily be taken down by 4 to 5 rockos is fine by me!, instead of rockos sometimes I just build an Hlt to knock them out as they have a longer range, or my personal fave just manauvre around them and kill of his undefended mexes and windmills he left behind when he set off to establish his forward position.
Just need a bit of scouting.
I played a game today and I used 2 peewees to go round an advanced line of llts, they killed 7 mexes before they were taken down...
( this was in the top right on forbodings new map, which is awesome btw!)
needless to say his advanced position wasn't too advanced after a couple of minutes with only 2 metal extractors... my shiny new mavs saw to that, hehe
But obviously if the enemy comm walks right into my base and starts d gunning then this isnt acceptable, rather lame actually,
I'd class that as a rush though not aggressive comm use.

Oh yer I dont really want the dgun changed or anything... its the coolest weapon ever! and it adds alot to the game, you can turn the tide of a battle with a couple of well aimed shots into swarms of attackers, I usually play comm death ends so this can be a risky maneuvre but its all part of the fun.
Anyway Im starting ramble now, its late here in England, I dont even know what the hell ive been typing for the last 10 minutes!, heh, actually... where the hell am I?... hmmm weird, I gotta go...
:)

anyway, just a topic for discussion. :D

Commander rushes aren't hard to stop with adequate scouting and radar. People who haven't mastered the game shouldn't propose balance changes. "Balance" based on one player's tactical flaws is no balance at all. I'll see if Diggz will post the replay, and y'all can judge for yourself.

The games Forboding is refering to are here.
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2019 Game 1
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2020 Game 2

..

And i still say that for those who hate rushers or expanding with com, you can have D-gun limit and Com death = end to solve all your problems.


Enlighten me, why do we still have this discussion if there is a good alternative for those who want it?

Andreask wrote:

Kixxe wrote: If you really think commander are overpowered, play Com end AND No d-gun from start position. Presto, you can only use your commander in your base, AND if he dies, you lose. Witch means that he can't leave the base, witch means no forwarded bases, no com bombs, no nothing.

Problem solved?

I know something you don't know yet. Let me tell you.

Enable D-Gun limited to start. Move the commander out of your base.
Select the commander and enter FPS-Mode.
Fire the D-Gun with your left mouse-button and annihilate all unsuspecting noobs who don't know about that issue .

That's a bug, not a balance issue.

actually digs, I wasn't really referring to those specifically. Same thing happened at another time. Our game was just what lit the match.

Regrettably I did not play incredibly well on either of the times I played you, because I understand how it feels to have a comm setting up shop right outside your base in a small map.

I guess the moral of the story, is is aggressive comm usage or ou lose. Seems kinda sad but oh well. Spose you have to be a bit of an asshat to get the job done.

I agree that a commander coming up to your base then dgunning/killing your defensive line when he blows up is quite cheap... Would be nice if his explosion could be smaller IMO.

Personally I've learned to become very offensive with the use of my comm because...hes GOOD at it. Probably too good. If I don't do it, it'll be done to me =). I've gotten to the point that if I see someone using his comm that offensively against me...and its becoming an inconvenience...I'll just attack his 'forward point' with my army+commander....Trade commanders...Problem solved. Its not 'comm rushing' because the middle of the map is neutral ground in my opinion. Kinda like in chess how you can trade queens . Of course, if we trade commanders...the opponent better have a backup defense in place...Because I get annoyed and he can expect a little army soon after =p.

I would like if limited-dgun worked, it would solve alot of problems...

And if your base has grown bigger than the limit-dgun range, your no longer in the beginning of the game! Shame on you! You should have defenses/units in place by then.

Heck, i'd be fine if the dgun only worked in the first 5 minutes of a game. Or if you only had 3 shots of the dgun (with a upgrade to commander's laser). I think Caydr's change to increase the energy cost and refire dgun rate is a good move. Lets see what impact it has.

-Drexion

Whatever happened to the energy web idea SJ and co talked about ages ago, that'd ahve solved this problem easily by forcing the commander to build a base before it could d-gun your lines, by which time you'd have walked your forces in and be harassing the commander while it's trying to build.

Perhaps we should set a falloff, perhaps the commanders d-gun should just fall off in power the further ti gets from the start pos, so that by the time it gets to your base its d-gun is only thrice as powerful as the laser at best, or ti takes a heck fo a lot mroe pwoer, limiting how many shots.

Play "Game ends" and all commander complaining goes away. Raiding with the comm becomes a suicidal gamble.

Personally, I just want to see a return of Deathmatch mode.

I like "Game Ends" but it has its problems. If I see a commander, i'm throwing everything I have after it...Don't care if I lose everything to base defenses, as long as I get that final shot in...

Your also very vulnerable to pinpoint air strikes that focus exclusively on the commander... You need an AWFUL lot of air defense to stop a concentrated air strike on 1 guy...

On "Game Ends" I often make my commander cloak once the game has progressed enough...and I keep it that way. There are other tactics to protect it while it helps a factory but those i'm keeping shushed .

Drexion wrote:I like "Game Ends" but it has its problems. If I see a commander, i'm throwing everything I have after it...Don't care if I lose everything to base defenses, as long as I get that final shot in...

Your also very vulnerable to pinpoint air strikes that focus exclusively on the commander... You need an AWFUL lot of air defense to stop a concentrated air strike on 1 guy...

On "Game Ends" I often make my commander cloak once the game has progressed enough...and I keep it that way. There are other tactics to protect it while it helps a factory but those i'm keeping shushed .

Use a decoy and let them bring the onslaught.

grr....com is not OP....need...alcohol....

Min3mat wrote:grr....com is not OP....need...alcohol....

OP?

Some more good pouints have been made... so i'll rmbel on some more.

OK... as I see it, its because people have different ideas of comander usage.

I, personly, use my comander to build manily, and also to sway a battel my way if im under attack.
Say you get caught of guard, and you hadn't finshed building say your LLT and you were getting rushed by 5 or 6 ak's... losing would sux, after all you have the comander. Now normaly ud d-gun them to hell. At this point some people go "ahh give him a better lazer!" which would work just as well above. However i'll now explane why i think thats wrong.

Same situation ecept thuther into teh game. You almost have you annialator built. suddenly, LVL 2 tank rush!! You dont have enough defenses to take them in a stright fight, but it being your base you have teh comander to help. With D-gun you take your risk of blowing them up and it hopefully pays off. However with the better lazer insted you just have another HLT. Which is highly suseptable to enamy fire. and will destroy half your base along with it. Worth teh risk?? No. He would not be able to sway the battle anyway, so whats the point in trying to use him. basicly he gets resigned to guarding some factory, and your defenses fall because the other player had a bit of luck (IE your anni not finshing...)

See why I like him like that??

Now onto the problem you have with the D-gun. Its so good that you can in teh early game walk into someones base and kill it all off. Now i admit if someone did this it would piss me off. And some people do do it. However it does not mean you have lost teh game by any means, and its certanly no reason to change teh D-gun because:

(playing com dies) Attack him with your com. he loses aswell as you do if tahts what he does, so he will run away. And as he runs follow to his base and shot a few of his things.. obviosly hell attack you but you can run just ike he did. Eventully you will both have to much defense to keep the game of tag going.

(playing com contiues) OK, so hes not affraid to lose his com. however his com cant do anything yours cant do, so do teh same back. keep out of his range and blow his base up. you'd both be in teh same boat. And dont tell me you cant see a com coming... there slow as hell.

(if he camps outside your base...)
Just cause hes camping outside your base does not mean hell have acces to any more prodution than you will. Infact hell prob have less as hes spent alot of time walking to you and his defense will be split between his near you base and his back up. All you have to do is be a little patient and get a HLT in range of his base as soon as possible, and dont wast your own production on worths attacks on his D-gun comander. Hell, you can even do it with LLT and then hell be pushed back to theer range, then just keep upgrading your defense till his pushed so far its not a bother. Plus you can alway flank him and hit his base from behind (Lots of peple forget that teh backs just as easy to attack as the front... and is often less well deffended.)

So all in all I see him as pretty balance. You can counter the anyoing camping outside the base, and replacing teh d-gun with a HLT would remove the comanders mid-to-late game use down to just building.

Finaly... just one little point thats not relevent exactly but hay... HES THE COMANDER!! HES MENT TO BE BAD ASS!!

aGorm