Spring RTS Engine

So, I tried importing the weasel model - it looks great, but there's a warning generated about the cob script complaining about there being no "sleeve" piece.

Peet wrote:

Win at explaining concept (and pwning Gota, not like its hard).

I would tend to think that Mr. D's units fall on the "infringement" side of the line, since their resemblance to the TA units is impossible to be coincidental.

If something *looks* like it's a copy of something else, you can defend it as accidental.

We can't defend it as accidental, because the units were obviously made as replacements for the TA units and originally released with TA names, so it's obviously a copy.

That's that.

And really, why doesn't CA at least replace the Ravager with the Garpike model? It's a very simple fix that woudl solve at least _one_ unit.

Beside the models, but in the same context, we can found single phrases from Scriptor that could be changed to avoid any troubles...

#define TA // This is a TA script

And perhaps more, a change into Spring parser code utilizing new entries exactly as the new ones from Scriptor.

Pxtl wrote:I would tend to think that Mr. D's units fall on the "infringement" side of the line, since their resemblance to the TA units is impossible to be coincidental.

If something *looks* like it's a copy of something else, you can defend it as accidental.

We can't defend it as accidental, because the units were obviously made as replacements for the TA units and originally released with TA names, so it's obviously a copy.

That's that.

And really, why doesn't CA at least replace the Ravager with the Garpike model? It's a very simple fix that woudl solve at least _one_ unit.

well i think that taking inspiration on something isnt ilegal the models look very nice indeed and i think ravager is good this way

dont say that
look at all the games there are
example dawn of war II was developed by relic while dawn of war I was some other company......... the models and textures were made from the same basis......

so no legal infringement imo
and btw i seam a bit lost when aplying a texture 2 as i induce reflectivness on ma texture 1

dawn of war II was developed by relic while dawn of war I was some other company......... the models and textures were made from the same basis......

They were both made by Relic... and they were both made with Games Workshop's economic participation.

If you're not sure how copyright / IP law works... basically, if you make something too similar to a known design, you may get sued.

"Taking inspiration" from something is fine- if you make something with the same general form, for example, that's safe- it's not like anybody can copyright the general concept of a thing. But when it's something like Mr. D's models, which were meant to closely mirror the studio models Cavedog's FMV production unit used to make the videos in that game, they're pretty clearly infringing.

So long as nobody makes money using those meshes, though, it's incredibly unlikely that anyone will get harassed or shut down. They're clearly fan art, and meant as such.

My models don't use any of the original geometry, none of the OTA textures, and require special COB scripts to work, which IMO are the big 3 things that are required to replace the OTA IP.

The only real problem, is that they resemble the originals, and that I stick the CORE logo onto most of them.

Btw, the arguing over how they may or may not be IP free is one of the factors as to why I quit making them.

I guess its pointless to make any more if they're going to be such a big problem, and possibly cause a lawsuit from whoever would make such a stretch over this old game.

Its not like I was selling them, or trying to infringe on anything, I was just trying to help make an attempt to get a few models into Spring that were not the property of Cavedog or Atari.

You should stop listening to all these e-lawyers who base most of their information on other e-lawyers theories. Your models rock.

its a shame you stopped making them, the models/textures were very good and i liked your alternative takes on the original designs like the banisher

imo ignore all the License baawers and just carry on making models

but why arent you making other modells for spring e.g. for ca? i mean its undoubtable that your modells are superb

They are not a problem, and I will clarify the point to you in private if it will make you continue.

There is nothing to clarify. Like others said, there are a few fuckers who have nothing better to do than talking about law issues when nobody cares. Most of them are probably angry to do nothing cool so they're just disturbing around.

Atari doesn't keep lurking the forum to fuck about law issue, doesn't care and, best of all, we/you don't care.

Maybe reskin them gently, remove the logos and make some changes to certain FMV features that take them outside the realm of being arguable that they're using the likenesses?

That's the simplest way to end this nonsense. With the Stumpy, I removed the logo in about 10 minutes, and now it's a generic tank based loosely on the Evolva model. Change out the textures on the Core Vehicle plant to be less obviously echoing the OTA original. Change various minor details that are specific to the FMV models, and use a different color scheme for the green areas.

None of this would take very long.

Imho, the Core VP is probably unusable if you want to obsess over copyrights. I mean, there are only so many shapes you can make a tank in, so any tank is going to look a certain amount like another tank... but the core VP is definitely a TA Core VP.

I mean, if you don't care, then you don't care. But don't bury your head in the sand and lie to yourselves. Yes, Mr. D made fantastic models. Yes, he made them from scratch. But they're models _of_ TA units. Nobody can even pretend to deny that. And that is not a legally safe position. If you don't care, that's fine. Nobody is ever going to come after you for Mr. D's models, we all know that. It's silly to even worry about it.

But don't lie to yourself about it.

Pxtl wrote:Imho, the Core VP is probably unusable if you want to obsess over copyrights. I mean, there are only so many shapes you can make a tank in, so any tank is going to look a certain amount like another tank... but the core VP is definitely a TA Core VP.

I mean, if you don't care, then you don't care. But don't bury your head in the sand and lie to yourselves. Yes, Mr. D made fantastic models. Yes, he made them from scratch. But they're models _of_ TA units. Nobody can even pretend to deny that. And that is not a legally safe position. If you don't care, that's fine. Nobody is ever going to come after you for Mr. D's models, we all know that. It's silly to even worry about it.

But don't lie to yourself about it.

Fully agreed. Thats my exact pov. The models and textures are 'need new pants' fantastic. But the fact that for the most part they so obviously and closely follow the OTA design mean they don't represent a departure from TA IP.

But the truth is, the owners of the IP don't appear to give a shit. And lets face it, no-one here really does either (I certainly dont). But saying "It's damn near a carbon copy of the TA model, but its an original mesh and skin so that means it's TA IP free" is wrong.

It seems that only the e-lawyers seem to be lying to themselves. Everyone knows these are remakes of TA units. On what basis do you think these models are actually on legally dangerous grounds even after they get ripped of their logos and names?

Millenium Act and its analogs in europe? No. Copyright? No. Any trademarks? No.

Cavedog / successors didnt own a patent, copyright, trademark on any of the tank designs.

I seriously want to know, what are you basing your statements on. No mumbo jumbo, tell me exactly what are those dangerous grounds with at least a few examples with court rulings.

What the fsck are you talking about? I will spell out what I am saying for you.

Mr D's models, while fantastic models with eyehump textures, DO NOT* represent moving away from TA IP.

* Not universally applicable, some of the models are very different from the originals.

From what you are saying, I should be allowed to make direct copies of the Warhammer 40k tanks, change things around a bit, give them textures that look somewhat different, put them in my game and be able to say "yes these are all original meshes, totally my own work." Give me a break dude.

You want examples? Halogen, a Halo mod for C&C3. Chrono Ressurection, a remake of Chrono Trigger.

And a good article on the subject: http://hosted.planetquake.gamespy.com/f ... oxed.shtml

And a ModDb thread:
http://www.moddb.com/forum/thread/copyr ... nt-warning

God you cant even differentiate between just a model and a mod directly based on copyrighted material. You completely missed my point and gave me completely irrelevant links. I am well aware of all the content in the links you gave me, ive been modding since Tiberian Sun and have had a keen interest in what has been going on.

About your "from what you're saying" part- im saying you can make a similar design if it isnt copyrighted, for example SC marines are pretty much WH40k space marines.

I will say that you yourself do make good models tho, keep up the good work.

Well ofc an individual model in and of itself isn't infringing. It comes down to use. It's when you start supplying someones IP without their knowledge and consent that things start getting iffy.

Halogen, the C&C3 Halo mod was all original* artwork, but using the designs and story of Halo. MS put the boot into it, which is their right. Halo and its 'universe' belong to MS, I think its only fair that they get to say what its used for and in, and under what circumstances.

The assumed owners of the TA designs and story [Atari] have not given their permission to use the TA IP. Its as simple as that. Just how close you can be to the designs they own is up to them, and they haven't said anything so its all open to interpretation.

In conclusion! Srsly, MR.D, don't worry about this shit. We'll deal with it if/when it becomes an issue. Obviously you enjoyed doing it, or you wouldn't have put up with all the rabblerabblerabble that comes with doing TA remakes. And christ, it's not like it's hurting anyone, so if you enjoy it, do it!

*by this i mean the Halogen team modeled and textured everything themselves

Just a general note. GW would probably crack down on you if you xeroxed the space marines, but the idea of power-armored troopers is hardly a unique idea. so if you were doing a game based on infantry [power armor or not] vs alien attackers theres no way it could be said that you were IP infringing, since that is a BIG genre (Aliens/AvP, Starship Troopers, Battletech [power armor], WH40k, Halo, Half Life, Starcraft etc etc) and theres room to move without jumping on anyones toes. Its just a matter of being careful to to directly lift too much of a game/whatever universe.

hey as far as i can recall, blizzard more-or-less stole the zerg as a race too. feh, i think mrDs models, without the logos, are cool to use. Their meshes are significantly different from those that they are replacing (as in, they are not modified versions of the old ones, but high detail new things) . If we call them something else, how are we doing anything different from blizzard?