More "BA" questions, split from The end of the maintenance branch - Page 2

More "BA" questions, split from The end of the maintenance branch

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saturnV
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Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

Ares wrote: 06 Dec 2020, 00:05 Triton was given springlobby server operator rank by admins to expand his powers in the context of BA10.
So I looked up how in hell that could happen.
Triton wrote in viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36798
triton wrote: 02 Apr 2018, 22:54I am part of BA dev team, and I have a lot of free time.
and yet here is MasterBel trying to tell us to ignore Triton because he is not part of BA10 team?
MasterBel wrote: 05 Dec 2020, 12:05BA10/BAR devs are not malicious. (Leave Triton quotes out of this. HE IS NOT A BA10/BAR DEV) They just want to create a great game and were sick of trolls.
Why does BA10-team always weasel out of responsibility? BA died while under their control because their changes were not liked. The End. Stop trying to construct stories how "a few trolls" sabotaged it or how players "refused to help test."
Stop this nonsense "XY is not a member of the team." If he talks and acts and makes commits like a member then he seen is a member. If you want to distance yourself from their toxic posts then why do you keep such people close to the team?
Or now the topic of directing balanced-annhilation.com to BAR: Who did it?
BA is dead on spring server but nobody wants to admit why.

This thread is titled "PLZ PERMABAN MANDO" is noteworthy too:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36556
triton wrote:He's like the first guy I know that really deserve a life ban.
NO NEED TO FUCKING ARGUE
bad pick for a lobby moderator.
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ThinkSome
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by ThinkSome »

Mando does deserve perma-ban, though.
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

I do not know. Why?
The reason given was "has been known to troll in the past."
That could be applied to many others, maybe even triton himself. Floris even admits that but does not act on it?

My point was that making an allcaps-thread screaming to ban someone without any explaination should disqualify as canditate for lobby moderator.
No cool head, personal agenda and too involved in the conflict around BA that was going on at the time.
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ThinkSome
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by ThinkSome »

saturnV wrote: 06 Dec 2020, 21:42 I do not know. Why?
The reason given was "has been known to troll in the past."
That could be applied to many others, maybe even triton himself. Floris even admits that but does not act on it?

My point was that making an allcaps-thread screaming to ban someone without any explaination should disqualify as canditate for lobby moderator.
No cool head, personal agenda and too involved in the conflict around BA that was going on at the time.
I never really played BA, and I have enough experience to want him permanently banned. I can only imagine how bad it was for those who were involved in BA. All-caps screaming is justified.

I think we should have hot heads in moderation/admining. Then the bans would actually happen, BA would be running on a modern engine and all the non-toxic players would still be here.
Ares
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

Thinksome in 9 years of playing BA 24/7 I haven't see you in 1 BA battle. You supported the idea of preventing spectators joining battles and setting a max player limit of 4 players per battle, then celebrated when Spring 1944 was briefly the most played game on Spring with 4 players post BA ban. None of the restrictions even affected you. Additionally you promised me that botflag would not be used to "effectively ban BA" in moddev years ago and yet here we are.
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

My point is that the hothead was not neutral in is admining. And further, how that was obvious from his history.

If you never really played BA then you do not understand why BA10 was not recieved well.
I explained in a previous post: viewtopic.php?p=596075#p596075
The story about "toxic players" that the BA10 told is bullshit. If the problem was only with a few toxic trolls, as they say, why did they leave BA broken like that? They made it unplayable for everyone because of a few trolls?
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MasterBel
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by MasterBel »

I'll say this once more.

saturnV, Ares, as long as you continue this crusade, you're part of the problem. If you want to be part of the solution, just ask. There are plenty of people trying to solve things who will help you get started. I'm first in line, and I'm currently working on a handful of things that will help push BA (and hopefully, Spring as a whole) forward. Would love all the help I could get.

--

For clarity, though, I'll just address a few points:

Yes, Forb has been asked not to speak for BA. He's not a BA dev. I don't know about PtaQ. At some point in the past he wasn't working on BA so much, but he now contributes to BAR in a number of ways so may be considered a BA developer. But you're right, the person who most represents BA10/BAR is Floris.

Multiple people have upgraded BA9.46 to Spring 104. Most notably BA10 It's not difficult, and now it's been done it shouldn't be time consuming. Just use the updates that other people have committed, no need to waste time and re-do the work.

Reactions to BA10 were in no way universal. Some people loved it. Some people hated it. 90% of the community wished the other 10% would stop arguing about it and start working to make BA as a whole better.

Finally, and most importantly, spring developers have no control over BA. The exception is maybe Bluestone, who was given the repository by Floris when Floris stopped developing BA. He was given the repository because he is trustworthy and would look after it. And he has. All he's done with it since obtaining it is give Ares and VBS commit rights. Not broken anything. Not blocked them from using it. And he asked that Ares demonstrate his trustworthiness, that he would prove that he would look after the repository, before transferring it, and Ares has refused to do so.

~MasterBel2
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

Finally, and most importantly, spring developers have no control over BA.
Of course they do.

1) spring developers control the rapid downloadsystem.
example usage:
Forboding Angel made a request to move the BA rapid repo from its original site to the github he and Floris had created:
https://github.com/spring/RapidTools/issues/47
Then abma did as asked.

2) spring developers control the forum, of course including the BA subforum.
example usage:
many locked/split threads and warnings and bans. not always neutral moderation.

3) spring developers have control over the engine. (duh)
They can use this to get leverage. "Either you do what we tell or spring development will stop and we turn off the server."
example usage:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39392&p=590818#p590818

4) spring developers have control over the lobby.
example usage:
using botflag-system to cripple teamhosts that used spring versions <104.
raaar
Metal Factions Developer
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by raaar »

saturnV wrote: 07 Dec 2020, 15:28
Finally, and most importantly, spring developers have no control over BA.
Of course they do.

1) spring developers control the rapid downloadsystem.
example usage:
Forboding Angel made a request to move the BA rapid repo from its original site to the github he and Floris had created:
https://github.com/spring/RapidTools/issues/47
Then abma did as asked.

2) spring developers control the forum, of course including the BA subforum.
example usage:
many locked/split threads and warnings and bans. not always neutral moderation.

3) spring developers have control over the engine. (duh)
They can use this to get leverage. "Either you do what we tell or spring development will stop and we turn off the server."
example usage:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39392&p=590818#p590818

4) spring developers have control over the lobby.
example usage:
using botflag-system to cripple teamhosts that used spring versions <104.
I agree that they do have some control, but if you click that kloot post you linked, you'll find a link inside:
Kloot wrote: Your argument (either out of willful ignorance or out of self-serving interest) also ignores the history of Mando's exploits, which were used to regularly hurt players (viewtopic.php?f=16&t=36556 etc), so it holds no factual weight.
In the case of 103.0 and earlier the devs do have reasonable reasons to restrict it to incentivize usage of newer ones : an exploit that could kill battle rooms and was used by mando himself (yes, the guy that runs the new BA server).

I think a good reason to not restrict is breaking compatibility with macs that still worked with 103.0 but not later versions.

There were BA versions made compatible with 104.0 and later, but they were rejected by the some within the community again and again, they boycotted the ba10 rooms and seeded ba9 rooms and eventually got people to move to their server.

That removed the incentive for the people that managed the BA rooms on the official server to maintain them (in which case they should have removed them instead of letting them stay there broken!).

Whoever holds the keys to some code base or infrastructure does have some power ("do what we say or we turn this off or stop maintaining"). So does the community that uses it ("do what we say or we either quit or replace you").

There's effort required to maintain things. Both sides can "abuse" their power. "How big is the abuse" should be considered. Tolerance goes both ways, etc.
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

So mando can kill hosts by exploiting code and spring developers kill hosts by exploiting power. Same difference.

The rest of your post has already been adressed I think, like why players did not like BA10 and so on. I see no use to go into more details.
Especially why and how BA10 failed to win over players has already been adressed.
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MasterBel
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by MasterBel »

There's one thing you never responded to – my ask for you to offer what services you think you can provide to contribute. We'll use anything we can get.
saturnV
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Joined: 03 Dec 2020, 07:58

Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

MasterBel wrote: 07 Dec 2020, 23:30 There's one thing you never responded to – my ask for you to offer what services you think you can provide to contribute. We'll use anything we can get.
I only respond to the most outstanding points because you bring up so much.
For example:
Finally, and most importantly, spring developers have no control over BA.
which was just wrong. I still do not know why you thought like that and you now ignored my reply. So it is not really a discussion here when you just make bold statements, I reply to it and you jump to new topics.

Ok, so now that question is more important to you. To solve the situation I can obviously provide nothing because I do not have access to server or the botflag system. Only those with access can remove the restrictions they put on engine usage. So apart from creating the thread "please allow all spring versions without restriction" there is nothing I can do.
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Beherith
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

"So apart from creating the thread "please allow all spring versions without restriction" there is nothing I can do."
Blatantly wrong. You can start by porting whatever version of BA you desire to play to engine 104, or even better, 104+.

You are only saying this because it requires the least amount of effort from you, and because it fits your warped narrative.

Reintroducing 103 solves nothing.
saturnV
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by saturnV »

Since when is it bad when something requires the least effort?
Reintroducing 103 solves nothing.
It would allow BA to come back to spring server. Which would bring back BA players and perhaps players of other games, too. (Appearently none of the other games was able to substain a playerbase either when BA was forced to leave)
It would allow Mac players to play until there is a 104+ mac version again.
It would be a signal that spring is not just open in source but also open as in tolerant. It would show that in spring access to things does not get exploited to get leverage.
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ThinkSome
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by ThinkSome »

> It would allow BA to come back to spring server

Ah yes, the only way for BA to come back is to do so on 103.0.

Also saturnV in 2030: "Why did the engine devs sabotage 103 to not work with 2030 hardware?"
Also saturnV in 2040: "Why did the engine devs sabotage 103 to not work with 2040 hardware????"
...

> It would be a signal that spring is not just open in source but also open as in tolerant.

Ah yes, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance


Don't take this message as meaning that all the blame is on toxic BA players. A lot of blame also lies on the infra admins. But is is their inaction rather than action that is the problem.

Also re Mac: these people bought into Apple's whims and they will have to live with the bad choice they've made. Also: you can install GNU/Linux on mac hardware, so there is a way to play 104+.
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PtaQ
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by PtaQ »

Players were already told to ignore what Forbording Angle or Ptaq and other people write, so it is not a new concept.
Just for the record, nobody was ever told to ignore me.
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Beherith
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Re: Splitting Ares's lies from: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Beherith »

saturnV wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 16:08 Since when is it bad when something requires the least effort?
Reintroducing 103 solves nothing.
Think of a car recall analogy: Your car is unsafe to drive as it could crash. You need to take it to the dealership to get the fix of 'not crashing'. Your least effort solution is not to take the car to the dealership, but to ignore it all together and keep driving. That is bad.
Ares
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

ivand wrote: 08 Dec 2020, 18:14 private BAR branch
is that the private BAR branch you said didn't exist the other day?
submarine
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by submarine »

@Ares: If I understood it correctly you are currently in charge of maintaining/developing BA, correct?

What are your plans to upgrade BA? At the moment I have a BA 10.24 which works with the latest maintenance build and a BA11 which does not (the game starts but no commanders appear).

If I understood ivand correctly, having BA compatible with > 104.0.1 would mean that some people with very old GPUs would have to upgrade. Is this really an issue? My naive assumption would be that hardly anyone playing 3D RTS games in 2021 has a GPU that does not support a ~10 year old OpenGL version.

I would for example love to see the explosions, smoke effects, water splashes from BYAR used in BA if the BYAR developers are ok with this (not sure if this is technically possible - with regards to modding I am total newbie :) )
Ares
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Re: The end of the maintenance branch

Post by Ares »

it's only for BAR and friends, Ivand do you give me permission?

BA would not exist right now if not for us stepping in. Exact same is now about to happen to engine. Privatised to raise donations for BAR.

User received a 2 week ban for this post. Felony 1.
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