About moderator policy - Page 3

About moderator policy

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

Moderator: Moderators

SirMaverick
Posts: 834
Joined: 19 May 2009, 21:10

Re: About moderator policy

Post by SirMaverick » 13 Feb 2015, 15:24

darklord42 wrote:
The active moderators {Flozi, gajop, Silentwings, Beherith} will never ban the offending posters {Forboding Angel, smoth} no matter what.
Anything else we should read again?
The rest of the thread to see, that this is a lie.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 13 Feb 2015, 16:35

darklord42 wrote:
I am not "targeting by names."
The active moderators {Flozi, gajop, Silentwings, Beherith} will never ban the offending posters {Forboding Angel, smoth} no matter what.
Anything else we should read again?
Please, yes:
Do read the whole post and in correct order or you misunderstand them.

1) In first post I wrote that I see no use for generalisations because they are simply not many active "moderators" and not many active "bad guys." If everyone can guess who is meant one can as well just use write the nicks.

Of course FA has been banned before, which like everyone, I know.
After Silentwings reminded of that I made my point more precise in the posts directly below:
"If someone gets banned so often in so short times then there is no more hope that they will ever learn."
So I guess this is a question then: What do you think will be different after the ban expires?
(I see this repeated short-times bans of days or 1-2 weeks as silly and not effective. Also: see forum rules.)

2) I wrote the post containing the sentence I am not "targeting by names" to explain that I did not just one day decide to go on a random "hunt" as some people were implying. Instead I slowly noticed a pattern in insulting posts: always the same names. There simply IS nobody else who posts like that. To put both together like that is "clever" but misses the point.

SirMaverick: Nothing personal that I did not list you as active moderator, but it seems you are not very active in forum.I now looked and in last two years (2014.2013) you only posted 20 times.

@ enetheru:
good post.
enetheru wrote:For my own personal feelings, I realised that the spring community was poisonous back in 2010, and I simply help in my own way by always being polite, caring, helpful. I have my own reasons for staying on and working on things for myself, these don't rely on the cooperation of other people or their validation. If it ever became too much for me I would simply move onto other projects.
That only works to a point. One can patentiely try to lead by example, like explain something very detailed and how you figured it out etc so others can figure things out too. Like: Look, see how easy this actually can be done, there is no need to rage about it.
But faith in peoples will to be constructive only goes so far.
What do you suggest to do in such cases:
Some dev makes a thread about how mods might need to be adjusted to upcoming changes in engine.
Several people discuss, all normal.
Then someone posts how things gets broken on purpose and what a load of bullshit this all is.
Other people react like: wtf? :shock: :roll: :shock:
Still those multiple people help fix and explain, even while being insulted as purposelly making it difficult to understand.
After a few such threads, especially if all the rage would have been unnessecary with just a tiny bit less ignorance, I find it very hard to give people the benefit of doubt or to see it as misunderstandings.


---
Arguing on the internet, very pro, I know. :roll: It has to be done so we can more effectively argue about the creation of tiny virtual robots about which players can then argue while they combomb each other.
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darklord42
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 07:11

Re: About moderator policy

Post by darklord42 » 13 Feb 2015, 16:56

There simply IS nobody else who posts like that. To put both together like that is "clever" but misses the point.
Then you ABSOLUTELY should make yourself clear from the get go. When you make a statement like that, all the rest of us see is a lie. Nothing clever about it. It has only been one page, and is just insulting.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 13 Feb 2015, 17:08

sorry about that then. either got lost while editing or I assumed that everybody knows FA gets banned sometimes, but always with hesitations and never for long so it would be understandable how it is meant.
I think if one decides to quote a sentence that had already been quoted (by Silentwings, directly underneath) it is good idea to keep reading there.
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darklord42
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 07:11

Re: About moderator policy

Post by darklord42 » 13 Feb 2015, 17:28

8611 wrote: I think if one decides to quote a sentence that had already been quoted (by Silentwings, directly underneath) it is good idea to keep reading there.
The lie isn't that they have been banned. The lie is that your aren't targeting them by name. Which you are. Since the very first post. That is why you are here.

If you had just came to this thread saying to the admins, "Hey, I have issue with people being overly impatient with new people in this community and I think we should reevaluate our policy here" That would be one thing. But that is not what you have been doing.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: About moderator policy

Post by PicassoCT » 13 Feb 2015, 17:44

What sort of well adjusted, nice individual, would go one, where everybody has given up, where just a mountain of work waits? Mmhh.. maybe FLOZi.. bad point, also i think i would get banned by this standards too...

WhatHaveIUnleashed.jpg

To clarify things- im not for bans - im for mutes, meaning, oldtown and new town. And new town has to be nice.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 13 Feb 2015, 17:51

SirMaverick quoted that part as "lie." I adressed both your posts together, they were about the same sentence(s).

Read part 2) of viewtopic.php?f=1&p=566330#p566327 again.
:arrow: I see posters who use insults "as a the only way to get shit done around here" and flip out because over trivia as bad.
smoth & Forboding Angel do that.
:arrow: As a result: Yes, I see smoth & Forboding Angel as problem posters.
:!: BUT: I reject the accusations that it is out of personal reasons or because they happen to be smoth & Forboding Angel.
:!: IF anybody else acted that way, I would have a problem with that person too.
But since a very long time I have simply not seen someone do that.
Clear now?
Last edited by 8611 on 13 Feb 2015, 17:55, edited 1 time in total.
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darklord42
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 07:11

Re: About moderator policy

Post by darklord42 » 13 Feb 2015, 17:54

The fact is, you aren't interested in banning the already banned. You want to publicly shame them to boot. OK, very good. You're is free to do it. But don't try to lie about it afterward.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 13 Feb 2015, 18:04

No.
I am not sure how long you think bans last here, but some bans have been as short as one day. That is useless.
Now it is 1-2 weeks which appearently have no effect either, if he just goes into old habits as soon as the ban expires.
Warnings and those short bans have absolutely no effect: Not on the offender, who does not change his ways by one milimeter, and not on forum which is only reliefed of ban-worthy crap for a short time.
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darklord42
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 07:11

Re: About moderator policy

Post by darklord42 » 13 Feb 2015, 18:17

Ok If that is what you wanted, then That should have been your first post.

"Hey Admins, I believe our banning policy is too lenient and is negatively effecting the community"

No this was how you started:
The active moderators {Flozi, gajop, Silentwings, Beherith} will never ban the offending posters {Forboding Angel, smoth} no matter what. *
I'm done here.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 13 Feb 2015, 18:25

...and again: no use to write it so general and vague.
If it is vague then people ask for examples, there are only two examples to give.
This is not the first time this is discussed, so that step can be cut out.

but one last time, not that after 10 years it matters now anymore:
"Hey Admins, I believe your banning policy is too lenient and is negatively effecting the community"
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darklord42
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Jul 2014, 07:11

Re: About moderator policy

Post by darklord42 » 13 Feb 2015, 18:36

Ok, I'm a lair too.
This is not the first time this is discussed, so just cut that step out.
But this was my point exactly, or you're walking the same path they did.
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Silentwings
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Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23

Re: About moderator policy

Post by Silentwings » 13 Feb 2015, 20:04

Given the choice between (a) a vague statement of ones opinion and (b) a precise but factually incorrect statement with the broad possibility of causing offense; I recommend (a) as the better option.
8611 wrote:one last time... I believe your banning policy is too lenient and is negatively effecting the community
You have stated your thoughts in a mostly constructive way (for which I at least am grateful), clearly and in great detail. I disagree with your view. I've absolutely no intention of discussing individual cases with those who are not involved.

Please respect the right of others to not share your views. Repeatedly expressing the same negative viewpoints, even if others disagree, eventually becomes harassment - which is a problem in itself.
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Jools
XTA Developer
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Re: About moderator policy

Post by Jools » 13 Feb 2015, 20:27

http://springrts.com/wiki/Felony#4. wrote: Private disputes and disagreements should remain between those they concern directly. Public disruptions regarding private matters can be considered intentional and warrant discipline. This includes discussing and contesting moderators' actions regarding you.
If you feel you have been treated unfairly, ask the moderator to pass your case to another or directly present your case to one of the active higher moderators.
This policy page is a good set of rules. But who of the moderators are higher and who of them are lower?
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Peet
Malcontent
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Joined: 27 Feb 2006, 22:04

Re: About moderator policy

Post by Peet » 14 Feb 2015, 02:50

and just how high is the highest one? :regret:
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 14 Feb 2015, 10:25

[10] :regret:

There is no "higher" or "lower" hierachy in moderation because that implies that there would be anything organized.
It is 20+ accounts with colored names and the access to edit/delete posts. About 5 are sometimes active. That is all, no further rules or magic about it.
Nobody really knows who is active or not, so even simple things like "asking all moderators" are impossible.
It is not until 1-2 last years ago that moderators SLOWLY began doing things of common sense: putting a note with names after editing/deleting something or keeping track of warnings or reading the rules or stopping to silently "fix" posts.
Everybody knew/knows that is stupid, but as soon as part of moderation there is suddendly hesitation to fix things.

From two years ago:
gajop wrote:I don't think I have officially warned or banned anyone yet, I'm mostly just cleaning this forum of spammers.
(...)
But come on, it's just a warning, suck it up, you can have like 5 of them until you get banned, for what, a day?
That is not meant to make fun of gajop (it could be anyone) and if you want then comment how that was not an official statement or how he was new or whatever.
But that is representive of how moderation used to work and largely still does. As recently as last year one could still amass several warnings (not petty stuff, serious ones) but moderation would find reasons to look away or hesitate to give the "final" warning.
"5 warnings and then banned for a day" - At least warnings are now actually tracked and bans are a week. It took long years to get there. And the general state of mind is unchanged.

Silentwings:
It would be nice to know why you disagree with my view, maybe even what is your own view?
Or if you are going to discuss "with those involved" and what you hope to archive there?
Or what, as a new moderator, you plan to do different than the iterations before you.
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PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10238
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: About moderator policy

Post by PicassoCT » 14 Feb 2015, 12:57

The problem is thus:
|> Smoth get stuff done
|> Forb copies and pastes, but gets stuff together


Such facts give you credits, you can spend those onboard - and yes, nobody will discipline you if you snap at a idea guy once you post shiny WIP...

Smoth had some serious health issues, and vented them at some guys - which is not okay, understandable yes, even makes you feel sorry for him, but still not okay.

But, that is the world, highly productive people, who can think for themselves -are divas. Its that way everywhere. Guess it comes with beeing bored by most stuff, knowing about once value and the dependance that others (seem) to have upon one - that one trys to spice a (maybe otherwise boring) life up.

But fact is, most other devs of the spring-world stay away from board most of the time. And we keep mostly professional devs, which means we scare off all those people that go to unity and other engines. We do something wrong. Knorke has spend most of his time sheparding newbs, so i think its worth listening to him.

Following this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F-3E8pyjFo

We have a too high bus factor.
We have author-names in code (widgets,gadgets)
http://youtu.be/-F-3E8pyjFo?t=20m39s

So hostility is something we cant afford any longer. So we either have to cull it, contain it or we accept that spring will always have this troll-town surrounded by a villages of seperate project forums. Looking at 0 ad, one can see that projects actually can be run different. Actually, the c++ core dev team runs on quite a nicer tone.

And one last thing, this rougher tone, this higher swings between niceness and hatred, makes for execellent entertaiment on its own. Actually most of the tv-shows you watch and enjoy, most of the games you play, contain storyarcs, that contain dramatic mini-arcs, made from a mixture of drama and joy. So this is not a demand for a emotionless forum, more for a use of those emotions elsewhere...
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gajop
Moderator
Posts: 3023
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 20:42

Re: About moderator policy

Post by gajop » 14 Feb 2015, 15:07

8611 wrote: From two years ago:
gajop wrote:I don't think I have officially warned or banned anyone yet, I'm mostly just cleaning this forum of spammers.
(...)
But come on, it's just a warning, suck it up, you can have like 5 of them until you get banned, for what, a day?
I see what smoth means about you digging up the past.
Although I'll support my words in this case, even though the warning/banning is properly enforced nowadays. Just like today, people are way too whiny about getting a warning: a warning itself is not a punishment. You usually need three in order for a ban to be enforced.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 14 Feb 2015, 15:18

I think I watched parts of that video before. It is interessting (well, as interessting as such talk can be) but it applies to a different world.

You seem to see as cases of talented developers who sometimes flip out, like an eccentric professor or so? I think that does not quite fit.

Words like "highly productive" and "gets stuff done" really should be looked at closer.
It is possible to highly productively work on something but still learn nothing.
Learn how to fold a origami paper duck.
Image
Fold one every day, for years.
Soon you can make paper ducks without even looking at your hands.
People will be impressed that your whole house is filled with ducks.
But at the end, what did you really do?
Typed "paper duck how to" into youtube, followed the instructions and repeated a boring, manual task over and over.
No question, there is an some sort of effort in that. And the first duck was difficult to make. But:
Did you understand why the paper ends up in that shape?
Can you now fold other animals?
Do you know what makes a good paper airplane?
Did you thumb-down the video for its lame music?
...

:!: If you have already gotten the point then stop reading here.
:!: Now comes the boring part.

It is similiar with spring modding.
One can spend years working on a spring mod while still learning nothing.
A bit creativity is still possible:
Today we make a red paper duck!
Oh look: It is yomomma paper duck made from a bigger piece of paper.
If you do not want to evolve beyond that, then fine with me, not my problem.
But please, do not discuss about the process off paper production and its environmental effects with your only references being how many paper ducks you have at home.

In case of spring modding that would for ex. mean being able to look up info for unit/weapon/whatever defination files, being able to make at least simple new units-scripts. Being able to read the changelog/wiki for engine changes and update your game based on the instructions given there.
Reading a tutorial when given link. To me it is a bit lazy to not learn these things, often they really are not difficult, I do not judge on that.

Anyway, I am bored of writing this analogy and to wrap this up quickly:
Forboding Angel lacks basic skills, knowledge and the will to read beginner tutorials even on things that would benefit him. But has made lots of paper ducks.
I would have no problem if he did not act like he had bio-engineered an immortal duck that ends worldhunger by being reborn everytime it gets eaten and if he did not scream so loud every time when finding a paper where the corner is crumbled up a bit...
So hostility is something we cant afford any longer. So we either have to cull it, contain it or we accept that spring will always have this troll-town surrounded by a villages of seperate project forums. Looking at 0 ad, one can see that projects actually can be run different. Actually, the c++ core dev team runs on quite a nicer tone.
On the c++ engine dev team there is nobody who needs to throws a fit of rage because he does not understand loops and has never read a c++ tutorial.
That would be seen as bizarre.
Ultimately it comes down to that in other projects people know what they are doing.
What we have here is a very special edge case scenario, usually such people are quickly found out to be trolling or get bored. Or after a bad start they learn the skills needed to do whatever they want to do.
Last edited by 8611 on 14 Feb 2015, 15:21, edited 1 time in total.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: About moderator policy

Post by 8611 » 14 Feb 2015, 15:19

@gajop:
Nice job on spotting your name, reading 3 words and totally missing the point.
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