ZK lobby server split is a disaster? - Page 5

ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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smoth
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by smoth » 04 Feb 2015, 18:29

8611 wrote:For example. This thread is a question from a player who wondered what happend.
I doubt he is the only player who wondered why the zK rooms are gone? It is a big "event", people might be interessted to learn about it.
Why is that the responsibility of the spring devs? ZKL probably can do a new pop up, they could make a post in the ZK subforum..
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 04 Feb 2015, 18:41

I think it is responsibility of "whoever is running spring."

If you had followed the situation you would have noticed that zK already did a pop-up and tried to do a news on springrts.com too, telling everyone to change adress in their lobbies. The message left out that there is not merely an adress change but a split-off of their server, and that the original server still exists.
While technically not a full lie it left out info in a way that to me it looked deceiving and not a nice move.
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 06 Feb 2015, 18:24

Nobody else posted so I will just give my non-lobby-person observations on other interesting things that happend.

http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/6692?page=1#116897
http://piratepad.net/kZbxOKWzdv wrote:Licho: its not like the protocol wont change
Licho: it will be more flexible than it ever was
It was a sign of things to come!
It does not seem like non-zK people were involved in designing the completly new protocol and again the infrastructure forum was not used.

:arrow: ...and now zK uses not only its own server version but also a different lobby protocol.
For players that means only the (adjusted) zeroK-lobby can connect. Afaik no other lobby can connect to zK atm.
:arrow: Anyone still does not see that as a split?

There was some talk about somehow combining the servers but it seems that was given up:
-the github issue is closed ( https://github.com/spring/uberserver/issues/129 )
-several posts, just quoting one: "I think ZK and Spring should just go our separate ways regarding servers/lobbies/lobby protocols." ( http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/6692?page=2#117492 )
-It does not seem like the new protocol was "officially" announced to non-zK for ex. in infrastructure forum.
-I found no docu of the new protocol, which others would probally need.
-How realistic was this complex idea anyway?

Will the split go further?
Will there be further escalation of small things? Random example: will stuff like zk-lobby's failing engine-downloads
( https://github.com/ZeroK-RTS/Zero-K-Inf ... issues/457 ) eventually cause zK to maybe make their own seperate download-stuff too? Maybe with new un-compatible download-mechanism too?
Appears unlikely, maybe, but some months ago how unlikely did the current events seem?

For players, modders, mappers, game makers these lobby-problems have not so much technical relevance but "morale questions" will come up. Will they eventually be forced to "take sides"? Some postings seem like that is already happening, that is the opposite of what is good!

What if zero-K really attracts thousands of players (and keeps them)?
It seems likely that if players enjoys spring-game-A they might be tempted to try spring-game-B.

How will it be handled: Does this mean non-zK hosts will pop up on the zK server?
At start of new server Licho was willing to host those, not sure what happend to the plan: right now there is probally not much interesst, yet.
Should more players appear it will become a more important question.
Will just the same situation as before be re-created? How to prevent selfdestruction due to success, like it happens to many lottery winners who suddendly get rich?

Is it a bit "arrogant" to assume that players only want to play one's own game, never wanting to try out other mods, like maybe BAR? Or even the "old BA", in case they want to play something with lower hardware requirements? With the shared history, is such thinking too selfish?

And other way around:
What will happen should zero-K not be a big success?
Without being too negative, the risk is there. Is it not better for both sides to have some "recovery plan"?

A new zero-K lobby is being made:
http://zero-k.info/Forum/Thread/11584
Will it allow non-zK games to be played decently? Or will it in this aspect be "worse"/more restrictive than old zKl?
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Licho
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by Licho » 06 Feb 2015, 18:52

There is no plan to restrict non-ZK games. The checkbox "show only official games" stays and thats it. If there are other games hosted on the same server, they will be downloadable and joinable.

Springies have capability to host any mod so it's easy to host let's say your own KP, BA or journeywar there.
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zerver
Spring Developer
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by zerver » 06 Feb 2015, 19:03

8611 wrote:What if zero-K really attracts thousands of players (and keeps them)?
It seems likely that if players enjoys spring-game-A they might be tempted to try spring-game-B.
You should be happy... ZK using their own stuff is a sign of maturity.

Of course ZK wants to keep players, and then it is a really bad idea to promote other games.

A private lobby server makes for better performance, availability, features, and moderation with a common goal.
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 06 Feb 2015, 19:11

@Licho
Thanks for reply.
Yes, that is good.
However in zKL the support of other games was technically there but quite rudimentary.
How will these things be handled:

-play KP, want to pick a map. http://zero-k.info/Maps only has "normal" maps, none of the special tron-styled KP maps. One can disable a filtere there, too, but that is of course not as good:
Non-zK-comptatible maps get downvoted or commented as "broken" because it is just one big map pool. Obeying mod's maplist ( http://springrts.com/wiki/Validmaps.lua ) would also be nice.
I know not many lobbies or mods really use it atm, but now that there is a new lobby being made I think it is good to bring up again.

-zK might want to remove some options from lobby for "cleaner GUI."
For example: color picker, ally-vs-team ID, faction selection, non-CAI bots etc.
What is the plan to maintain compatible with other games that use these spring-standard things?

-replays of non-zK mods.
Last edited by 8611 on 06 Feb 2015, 19:35, edited 2 times in total.
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 06 Feb 2015, 19:29

@zerver:
It will not need any promotion for players to discover that this engine runs several games, that is natural process and one can not block it.
Just reading the zero-K forum brings up many references to other spring games.
Or map descriptions that say "made for BA and similiar games", or youtube or just players chatting.
If a players gets into modding or development - he will find other games.
The zK credits contain following line:
Initial balancing based on Balanced Annihilation by NOiZE and DayWalkeR and Absolute Annihilation by Caydr both based on Total Annihilation game.
Players will be interessted in roots of the game that they are playing.
And once they find that these games still exist, even have been in development, of course they want to play them too.

I am not so sure if "ZK using their own stuff is a sign of maturity."
Better performance, features, - yes all nice. But I do not see why this could not be archived for ALL games on one server. Except that lobby devs disagreed how it was to be done.
If something good is made, like improvements to server or to lobby or engine, why should not everybody profit from it? This concentration on just one owns small mod does not seem mature at all. :/

On its own every single step into seperate lobbys, servers and installers made sense but maybe only because people never looked further ahead than one step. That way one can end in a spot where one did not want to go.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by luckywaldo7 » 06 Feb 2015, 20:37

8611 wrote:On its own every single step into seperate lobbys, servers and installers made sense but maybe only because people never looked further ahead than one step.
People are looking one step ahead, you look a thousand hypothetical steps in a thousand directions.

If every developer fretted so much about the consequences of everything, nothing would ever be released.

Will anything in Zero-K ever be perfect? No, not a single detail. But it will make progress, and get a steam release, and maybe it only gets five new consistent players. But that's five more players who experienced the game and art that a lot of people put their souls into, because they wanted to and enjoyed it.

Spring might never be popular. It might eventually die and be lost to history forever, and there will be no one that cares about it. The world will keep spinning anyway. Stop stressing so much about the engine and the community and popularity.
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darklord42
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by darklord42 » 06 Feb 2015, 21:07

luckywaldo7 wrote: Spring might never be popular. It might eventually die and be lost to history forever, and there will be no one that cares about it. The world will keep spinning anyway. Stop stressing so much about the engine and the community and popularity.
While perfectly sound in your assessment, Nihilism isn't helpful... (Oh boy what if the planet blew up, then this whole discussion about computer software would seem kind of pointless, wouldn't it?)
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 06 Feb 2015, 22:08

luckywaldo7 wrote: and maybe it only gets five new consistent players. But that's five more players who experienced the game and art that a lot of people put their souls into, because they wanted to and enjoyed it.
...and thousands of people who never get to experience the game and art that a lot of people put their souls into.
Such thinking is not nihilism, it is egoistic refusal to learn from mistakes.
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Orfelius
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by Orfelius » 06 Feb 2015, 22:28

Mayby if the game is butt load of refuse then it is better that they wont see it eh? At least butt load of refuse for them not that I think that Zero-K is any bad mind you :) but that is very much subjective.
Altrough I must say something:
I have been browsing trough the net especially searching for info about ZK's receptivness and... suprisingly I have seen very few bad impressions of the game o.O there were praises all around whether it was RockPaperShotgun comment section, Uberent forums or teamliquid forums. This kinda speaks for itself already that the gameplay itself is good :) and if gameplay is good (witch is core experience) then game is gonna be liked.
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luckywaldo7
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by luckywaldo7 » 06 Feb 2015, 23:01

8611 wrote:
luckywaldo7 wrote: and maybe it only gets five new consistent players. But that's five more players who experienced the game and art that a lot of people put their souls into, because they wanted to and enjoyed it.
...and thousands of people who never get to experience the game and art that a lot of people put their souls into.
Such thinking is not nihilism, it is egoistic refusal to learn from mistakes.
It's egotistical thinking to assume that it needs or deserves to be enjoyed by thousands to be worthwhile to the developers or artists.

It's egotistical thinking to think that you are the one to decide whether or not the decisions of other people are "mistakes".
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luckywaldo7
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by luckywaldo7 » 06 Feb 2015, 23:04

Orfelius wrote:Mayby if the game is butt load of refuse then it is better that they wont see it eh? At least butt load of refuse for them not that I think that Zero-K is any bad mind you :) but that is very much subjective.
Altrough I must say something:
I have been browsing trough the net especially searching for info about ZK's receptivness and... suprisingly I have seen very few bad impressions of the game o.O there were praises all around whether it was RockPaperShotgun comment section, Uberent forums or teamliquid forums. This kinda speaks for itself already that the gameplay itself is good :) and if gameplay is good (witch is core experience) then game is gonna be liked.
I mean, they can appreciate that some random people went and made a game for fun, and give it out for free, and that's all cool even if it isn't perfect. That aren't looking for flaws in the details of anything that anyone does, to feed some kind of god-complex.
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Orfelius
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by Orfelius » 06 Feb 2015, 23:04

+1 luckywaldo :)

Ps. I miss that feature from ZK forums :?
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Forboding Angel
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by Forboding Angel » 07 Feb 2015, 00:22

Orfelius wrote:+1 luckywaldo :)

Ps. I miss that feature from ZK forums :?
I implemented google +1 buttons to posts a while back, but have since lost the code, and someone else did it with a user script.

Edit: Someone else did it too: http://data-medics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=125
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Orfelius
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by Orfelius » 07 Feb 2015, 10:44

^ hey at least it is not a bot right? :mrgreen:
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PicassoCT
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by PicassoCT » 07 Feb 2015, 10:51

Maybe al Quaida has a point.
Jewelery for a dog.
The west is asbest.
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 07 Feb 2015, 16:07

luckywaldo7 wrote:It's egotistical thinking to assume that it needs or deserves to be enjoyed by thousands to be worthwhile to the developers or artists.
No, that is the point of this thread. Games are published on steam to get many players and infrastructure is upgraded to work with many players.
luckywaldo7 wrote:It's egotistical thinking to think that you are the one to decide whether or not the decisions of other people are "mistakes".
Hippie-zen-treehugger detected: The final judgment won't be in man's court!

If there is an error in code then that it is bad. If something does not work then that is bad. That happens because someone made mistakes. There is nothing subjective about that. Unless you want to start a hobby-philosophy debatte about re-defining what is "good" or "bad."

Image
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smoth
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by smoth » 07 Feb 2015, 16:40

Your posts are not always correct knorke and you often come across like all other opinions are invalid. I think that is what Waldo was trying to say
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8611
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Re: ZK lobby server split is a disaster?

Post by 8611 » 07 Feb 2015, 17:26

Code, math, logic,.. you see room for "opinions" where there is none.
19,700 kg does not convert to 1.938839285714286 tons and a code either works a certain way or it does not.
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