SpringLobby - please implement !join

[Cheesecan]

Well Licho it must seem like everybody is ganging up on you. But there is a point to that, and this is not even a new subject. Building a platform on hacking is never a good idea in the long run. What happens when one of the critical team members has to leave? This is why engineering is a discipline which requires planning and deliberation. Whereas hacking code is something anyone who knows syntax could do. You don't think Linux was made in this way do you? There was a central figure whose role was to lead by good example yes. But collaboration was a natural result of good communication. What you are doing is something different though.

If you think collaborating like you do at work is painful, and just want to develop things on your own for fun or with a small group of buddies, then that's fine. But don't be upset when the rest of the world stands around like a when you make demands.

Also as far as maker goes. I couldn't agree more, a skilled craftsman should have freedom in his/her work to do it best. But anytime you involve others there are certain things to take into consideration. Is your solution flexible? Is it well documented? Should it be optional?

Many of those things you mention are things which others don't use. The things they do use are used by choice not compulsion.

I really don't think the original post suggestion is a good way to do it, I don't want my users to get PMs from bots. It is too confusing. I also don't want to have to parse all PMs to see if it is from a bot in order to display something more user-friendly, because frankly it is bad design. Since I have no saying in the matter, I won't endorse this.

[Licho]

I dont know what you want more people..
I didnt choose this way, this way is the only way possible atm..

You want different way? Modify uberserver (first has to go through Aegis). Im fine with ANY low level detail, frankly I dont care. Why are you so obsessed with such minor details is beyond me.

Its like fighting some crazy bureaucracy.
All that matters is players, get it finally!!!

Meh remind why do I spend 1000€ and countless hours per year on this crazy project...

[Satirik]

Well Licho it must seem like everybody is ganging up on you. But there is a point to that, and this is not even a new subject. Building a platform on hacking is never a good idea in the long run. What happens when one of the critical team members has to leave? This is why engineering is a discipline which requires planning and deliberation. Whereas hacking code is something anyone who knows syntax could do. You don't think Linux was made in this way do you? There was a central figure whose role was to lead by good example yes. But collaboration was a natural result of good communication. What you are doing is something different though.

If you think collaborating like you do at work is painful, and just want to develop things on your own for fun or with a small group of buddies, then that's fine. But don't be upset when the rest of the world stands around like a when you make demands.

Also as far as maker goes. I couldn't agree more, a skilled craftsman should have freedom in his/her work to do it best. But anytime you involve others there are certain things to take into consideration. Is your solution flexible? Is it well documented? Should it be optional?

Many of those things you mention are things which others don't use. The things they do use are used by choice not compulsion.

I really don't think the original post suggestion is a good way to do it, I don't want my users to get PMs from bots. It is too confusing. I also don't want to have to parse all PMs to see if it is from a bot in order to display something more user-friendly, because frankly it is bad design. Since I have no saying in the matter, I won't endorse this.

go ahead, change the protocol, update the server and make it live we've been waiting for someone like for about 5years now, thank gods (zeus rules) you're finaly there !

discuss whatever you want with whoever you want and pm me and licho when it's done, until that we'll keep the pm spam !

[Satirik]

I dont know what you want more people..
I didnt choose this way, this way is the only way possible atm..

You want different way? Modify uberserver (first has to go through Aegis). Im fine with ANY low level detail, frankly I dont care. Why are you so obsessed with such minor details is beyond me.

Its like fighting some crazy bureaucracy.
All that matters is players, get it finally!!!

Meh remind why do I spend 1000€ and countless hours per year on this crazy project...

can't you fuckin read my post instead of theirs

[Axiomatic]

...there cnanot be opt-in in lobby (asking user every time) because it breaks whole principle and makes it impossible to work.
It has to know before asking.

Juggler doesn't have to ask every time. Lobbies can tell the autohost host either when logging in, or when joining the battle. Ideally the lobby would show a checkbox and would remember its state.

What breaks the principle isn't just SL users, but the users who simply don't want to be moved. Even when I've been moved to a 1v1 with another ZKL user, they usually leave immediately and I'm left in an empty battle.

So there are 2 major opt-outs:
- dont join juggled rooms
- set preferences to never

The preference should be implemented in the lobby client, not on a website.


I don't oppose implementing features external to the official protocol. What I object to is expecting other lobby devs to support your extensions without being willing to compromise on implementation.

[hoijui]

it is not the only way, it is the easy way, the lazy way.
i explained the other way, and it is possible. it is harder, slower, but leads to better results. you not willign to do it is lazyness, and you thinking that your time is not worth it to be spent on designing and discussions, because you already know the optimal solution (which of course, you never do). this is an opportunity to learn somethign very important and basic, how you can profit from more collaboration.
collaboration does not work if oyu do it like this: i do it, then others might complain, nad if thye do, i tell them why they are wrong. of course the chance and hte will to change somethign you coded and are convinced of it is optimal is much much lower, then when the changes go into the blueprint already. the factor is like.. 1:20 or something... dunnu.. huge! and rapid is a perfect example.
at least stop pretending as if your way is hte only way, it is not. engine devs prove it (and we too are difficult personalities, mind you!). there should be a regular meeting, and people there should have the shared power, and not one of them who has a lot of careless initiative and the most power cause of huge userbase.
just cause everything you do is used by people does nto make it good.
just cause daphone can only use applestore, and people buy a lot from it, does not make the concept good, even if it gets you lots of users. you are friggen apple and MS, you bring unity to our desktops, and you complexify our config files, so they are only usable through unified GUI tools that depend on your unified desktop. we don't need you, what you do is not good.
you are hitler, telling us that yes, we can, we are das Deutsche Volk, you empower us, to live in the world you forsee for us, a better world, where things that need be done actually get done, your way, the best way, the only way.
arian nation! the brotherhood of ZK! patria o muerte! bring us LOVE, my fuehrer!
bla bla bla

[Cheesecan]

go ahead, change the protocol, update the server and make it live we've been waiting for someone like for about 5years now, thank gods (zeus rules) you're finaly there !

discuss whatever you want with whoever you want and pm me and licho when it's done, until that we'll keep the pm spam !

Uberserver's 2700 line script for protocol is not conducive to change. I wouldn't mind editing your command into SpringLS, if it was ready for prime time. Though if I touched it now, it would be like raping hoijui's unborn baby and creating a mutant baby powered by cheese. After SpringLS is ready it would be more like putting a block of cheese out for the baby to eat. So I'd rather wait. Can you?

[danil_kalina]

hoijui is right, we need to collaborate. And I think every week meeting will not take from us much time. It will direct us to the right path.

[Licho]

Hoi wtf? I asked for comments for juggler system like 100x, it was very hard problem for me to solve .. it was in design for one year, there are numerous wiki and tickets and forum threads describing its various proposals..

I got minimal feedback and now when its done people who do nothing (im looking at you axiomatic) want to *decide things* ?
Fuck off!

So far I only got this feedback from involved people (people who actually do things):

Satirik: ok, done
danil_kalina: ok, done
Aegis: ok, will be done with backwards compatibility
koshi: no, ugly protocol (*waiting for aegis*), confirm dialog complaints (*i explained that*)

All im arguying for is for Koshi to implement !join before Aegis implements proper way (as it could take him months).
Reason is that juggler is already running and SL users break it so far. My other option is blocking SL users from juggled autohosts.

[danil_kalina]

Yes, It is done. But I expect that the Protocol will be changed eventually

[hoijui]

licho, you keep going in circles, wiht every post.
your way of doing things is fundamentaly worng, and people partiually or fully going with you in the flow does not change that, or make it any better.
obviously your way was insufficient (asking for comments on your proposal, if i got that right), as you ogt none, and it creates rage anyway. needs meeting.

[Axiomatic]

I'm sorry if I my posts came across in a certain way. However I wouldn't say I "do nothing". I have coded a working lobby and, even if I am the only one who uses it, I think that does entitle me to an opinion.

Btw, Alphalobby has supported "!join" before I posted anything in this thread, because I think that Juggler is better than nothing. I'm not going to repeat my earlier points because I said all I wanted to say and this thread is becoming increasingly heated.

[Anarchid]

In fact, this thread has already passed the godwin's law point.

However, still: what viable alternatives are there on linux to springlobby?

i'll insist on being personal here: banning springlobby at this point equals banning me from that game, and anyone else not on windows just as well, at least until/if zkl supports linux or other lobbies reach maturity.

Issuing ultimata like banning SL in order to force one's tech agenda is bad politics - especially in an open source community. Even if it works, it leaves a bad aftertaste to linger possibly forever.

And lobbying behind the scenes, while frequently an useful and effective tactic, is, in my opinion, not much better - for as much as it precipitated the current situation here.

---
tldr: Me, i'd wait for the protocol consensus. I have no qualms with juggler not working too much, even as ZK seems to boil down into 12x12 games that once were BA's domain. So what if juggler can automate generation of such hosts?

[Cheesecan]

Where was Godwin's law invoked?

I don't mind (and neither should you) that ZK is grabbing exclusive rights, banning SL and any other lobby that doesn't want to play along. It's their right to control their own game. Why run another lobby if you are going to play ZK anyway? ZK lobby has the best support for ZK and that is unlikely to change.

Licho working on things that will become deprecated is not beneficial to the community but it's his own time wasted so it's really nobody elses business.

As long as non-ZK autohosts are not affected it's not an issue.

Edit: ZK already turned me off when I was kicked for not having enough hours logged in ZK to play on their hosts. ZK is all about exclusion and elitism enforced by unlocks gained from having lots of playtime. Not surprised their lead dev acts like this Self-destructive.

[gajop]

I don't mind (and neither should you) that ZK is grabbing exclusive rights, banning SL and any other lobby that doesn't want to play along. It's their right to control their own game. Why run another lobby if you are going to play ZK anyway? ZK lobby has the best support for ZK and that is unlikely to change.

<insert insult/>
Banning SL pretty much means banning linux until other cross-platform lobbies become usable.
It may be their right to do that, and if they do I would certainly stop playing it until it's resolved.
And all for what? Juggler? Sigh...

[cleanrock]

The juggler is not working for team games in zk, it annoys many zk players (including me).

Just mentioning banning SL for this broken/unwanted feature is just scary.

[Anarchid]

Where was Godwin's law invoked?

springrts.com/phpbb/search.php?keywords=hitler&terms=all&author=&fid[]=64&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

(damn the board code for not understanding the url)

I don't mind (and neither should you)

I'm an egoist, so - I do mind because i like ZK, and because barring me from what i like feels like someone trying to steal my candy. Which (candy) i selfishly want for my own selfish self.

And because such egoism is my sole moral guidance, it's my moral oblication to mind - so by all means i should mind as well.

[Licho]

The juggler is not working for team games in zk, it annoys many zk players (including me).

Just mentioning banning SL for this broken/unwanted feature is just scary.

It is broken and annoying because of SL non compliance..
Thats why I kept posting into this thread.. i gave up now.. appparently im hitler of spring.

We wont ban anyone until good replacement is ready. It can be notalobby, zklobby for linux, we will see... meanwhile we will notify SL users to switch when joining juggled games (unfortunately there is no way to only notify windows SL users who have the option to switch).

It can resolve in 3 ways
* Aegis makes the required uberserver change
* SL implements !join or other way to achieve the same
* other good lobby for linux becomes available

[hoijui]

there is actually at least one more way:
* pull your troops out of austria, czechoslovakia and poland

[Licho]

You are supposed to be neutral!