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Curious

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Peet
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Re: Curious

Post by Peet »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:He suggested that your morality is childish, which in light of your recent posts seems perfectly reasonable. You speak and apparently think in the black-and-white extremities of moral correctness assosiated with the under-developed reasoning of children.
I don't think I did that either did I :?
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TradeMark
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Re: Curious

Post by TradeMark »

Forboding Angel wrote:Athiests have the issue of not being bound by morals at all if they so choose. There is no good better best scenario here and the final test relies on the person himself, religious or not, whether his is or can be corrupted.

I would go so far as to say that believing in nothing leaves the individual in question more open to lack of morals and corruption than believing in something would.
Nah, theres no moral issues here. We can teach moral and good behaviour without any religious spice. In fact, your parents should have taught you all that. Not some outdated book that prefers you to punch your wife if she doesnt do what you want her to do. Heh.... now whos the bad boy here?

--

Koran isnt totally full of crap though, it has some good life teachings too, but we dont need the religious shit in there to be able to learn all that good in the book, do we? If we cut out the religious bullshit and update it to fit the current way of living (we dont stone people to death anymore), and tell the people to think on their own too, then we would be just fine. No crybabying about some prophet images etc. Just peace.

When hundreds of years old un-changeable book made out all the rules in your society, how the hell could you ever adapt to some other nation laws? You cant. You feel need to push your way of thinking to them, because thats what your parents taught to you: it is the only truth, and if it wasnt, your whole life has been a lie. And thats what they fear the most... That is the basic problem with all religions, thats what causes all the conflicts.
Last edited by TradeMark on 21 May 2010, 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Peet wrote:I suggest you adjust your language in the future to make it explicit that you are expressing your own personal opinions and not something you consider to be a universal fact.

The sky is blue. I think blue is an alright colour.
Everything in life is an opinion. Even obvious things would depend upon the structure of the human mind being able to relate to consciousness of life.
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Peet
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Re: Curious

Post by Peet »

One still needs to make the sensible distinction in order to participate in a civil debate.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

Peet wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:He suggested that your morality is childish, which in light of your recent posts seems perfectly reasonable. You speak and apparently think in the black-and-white extremities of moral correctness assosiated with the under-developed reasoning of children.
I don't think I did that either did I :?
you did, through secret #RoX telepathy
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Jazcash wrote:I can say they're bad Muslims if I like and I can choose the believe they're bad Muslims or not Muslims at all if I so wish. Whether people are influenced by what I say or think is up to them.
I believe this is somewhere around where Adolf Hitler started. You need to grow up and take responsibility for your actions, that includes words, because the formation of words is an action.
Jazcash wrote:Let me explain further. To be of a religion, you need to at least try and abide by it's teachings. Otherwise, you aren't part of that religion at all.

A more common example:

To be a cake, you need to be a cake and not a human. If you are a human and not in fact a cake, then you are actually a human and you don't not posses the same attributes as a cake as. Because you do not posses the same qualities as a cake, you are not a cake. No matter what you proclaim. You may feel free to justify yourself, some people might even have the same belief as you can also think you're a cake. However, factually, you are not a cake because to be a cake you need to posses the same personalities as a cake.

I hope that's cleared things up a bit.
Your analogies remain as shit as usual I'm pleased to see. The problem with your analogy is that you don't allow for any leeway. Some people may like certain Christian teachings and choose to follow these, but decide not to stone their neighbour for atheistic views. Does that make them a cake or a human?
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Peet wrote:One still needs to make the sensible distinction in order to participate in a civil debate.
Depends what one needs to make the distinction between. For such complex issues like religion, belief is vital. That's part of what faith is, just simply believing in something where there is a strong general sway against it.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek »

So wtf do you believe jazz? What do you care if muslims follow whats written in the koran exactly to the word? Why do you use the bible to back up your views about gays?
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KaiserJ
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Re: Curious

Post by KaiserJ »

I'm not a Christian and never said I was.
sorry for my misinterpretation, i felt like you were identifying yourself as a christian from some of the content of earlier posts
Don't know where you got that idea from. I can say they're bad Muslims if I like and I can choose the believe they're bad Muslims or not Muslims at all if I so wish. Whether people are influenced by what I say or think is up to them.
it's difficult to understand what you're saying from the tone of your post, whether some of the points were "opinions" and some were "facts" (because surely theres a difference between the two)... suffice to say, imagine yourself a christian, and then apply my points? sorry again for assuming you were.

no need to be aggressive with me here, i understand what self-awareness and categorization are.

just as you are able to reach your own conclusions about what you (and the people around you) are, you have to understand that everyone else has this ability as well. and certainly, as with your cake example, perception plays a huge role in what people believe and categorize themselves as, regardless of external perception.

my point about knowing muslims who weren't devout was that they still feel they are muslim regardless. i'm not going to impose my own beliefs on what they think or do, because i'm "guilty" of the same "sins" and at the end of the day i still feel im a good person (theres the perception thing again)

when its census time, they will record that they are muslim. they are part of however many million muslims there are in the world, regardless of how the devout ones feel about it.
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

Sucky_Lord wrote:
Jazcash wrote:I can say they're bad Muslims if I like and I can choose the believe they're bad Muslims or not Muslims at all if I so wish. Whether people are influenced by what I say or think is up to them.
I believe this is somewhere around where Adolf Hitler started. You need to grow up and take responsibility for your actions, that includes words, because the formation of words is an action.

You proved your idiocy to me a long time ago. You don't need to keep trying to convince me any more.
Jazcash wrote:Let me explain further. To be of a religion, you need to at least try and abide by it's teachings. Otherwise, you aren't part of that religion at all.

A more common example:

To be a cake, you need to be a cake and not a human. If you are a human and not in fact a cake, then you are actually a human and you don't not posses the same attributes as a cake as. Because you do not posses the same qualities as a cake, you are not a cake. No matter what you proclaim. You may feel free to justify yourself, some people might even have the same belief as you can also think you're a cake. However, factually, you are not a cake because to be a cake you need to posses the same personalities as a cake.

I hope that's cleared things up a bit.
Your analogies remain as shit as usual I'm pleased to see. The problem with your analogy is that you don't allow for any leeway. Some people may like certain Christian teachings and choose to follow these, but decide not to stone their neighbour for atheistic views. Does that make them a cake or a human?
You're either a Christian or you're not. You cannot be in-between.
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SirArtturi
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Re: Curious

Post by SirArtturi »

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: somthing tells me you get your oppinions from fox news
I feel also that his opinions are quite narrowmindend without much real life facts. Maybe too much one cause sources and one way media...

So busy debate here that Im not able to keep up...
Raghna wrote:
Satirik wrote:german killed 2millions jew in 4years, japanese killed millions (20 millions ?) of chinese in 3years ... who wins ?
This is not a contest about what war has the most casualties.
Why did you start making such analogies in the first place then? Isn't it quite problematic to compare historical and geopolitically specified statistics to todays scale. You just cant use numbers here as a proof of concept

Then you are blaming others using similiar comparisions...
Otherside wrote:All religions should just be abolished tbh. I know its a bit late now but really the majority of the problems the world has now in terms of wars etc are mainly due to differences based on religion (also most wars in the past)

I hate all religions some more so than others because of there retardation.
Wow wow... Now this is going pretty wild here. Since when most of the wars of past have been because of religion? It's rather that religioin has been the justification, not the cause... Read your history books a bit more carefully!

Your hatred also tells more about your retardation than the retardation of human nature and his tendency and passion to spirituality and reasoning to the meaning of life...
Jazcash wrote:I see no point in continuing with this unless people realise that the old testament is before the birth of Jesus Christ which is before he "died for our sins". That's when morality was set in stone.

You know, in the Old Testament, it states that the only people who could be Christians were Jews. In fact, it states countless things which the New Testament teaches against.

All the quotes of the Bible in this thread are from the Old Testament and are quoted without any context at all. If you could find some New Testament quotes, that would be great. Thanks.
Jaz seems to have problems realising the point that there is no true christianity as there is no true islam in the light of this perspective we need to use to understand this whole issue of drawings of muhammad. Old testament is clearly a part of christianity and its legacy and dogma. If you want to speak about churches that are based only on new testament, then dont use word christianity here.

One could compare this to the hadhits http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith and claim that no, they are not part of true islam...

Anyway... this is, I think, the most important point, and the whole idea of the topic, I'd like to grasp on:
TradeMark wrote:
forest_devil wrote:as far as i see it if someone has the right to insult you then you have the right to insult them back.
thats childish... just shut up if someone insults you, its the best.. dont feed the trolls.
TradeMark wrote:
Raghna wrote:, but we can't give in to them, just like a parent can't give in to his child crying because it wants that toy he saw on television.
I feel the same... they are just kids who cry for their toy. We cant give up. Or we end up like in that one movie... and what happened? the computer took over the world and we were just puppets doing that what he told us to do, following his new rules, and we prayed for salvation for the mistakes we did. Do you want that to happen to your kids? Do you?? Oh wwait, thats pretty much what all religions are about... 8)
And you people think that it is grown up and morally noble to insult and provoke in the first place? You think that it's alright to dishonor someones faith and worldview by drawing a totally tasteless picture of someones god fucking a pig just because it will defend your right of free speech? I say that is totally childish, no matter how well the end would justify the means, which although I really doubt.

Why is it so necessary to offend someones sacred things or hurt sensitive feelings intentionally? No other way to go?

I agree that it is totally unacceptable to terrorize and threaten someones life because of his sayings. And I see it as a problem that some of the muslims takes it so seriously but I totally understand why they feel offended and provoked.
Isn't that what you and they want? To keep feeding the conflict until it escalates and blood is shed... Then you would have even more reason to hate each other.

I dont want to be fancy and unrealistic here. Just trying to raise some questions and give some other points to think about... This kind of provokation is ridiculous no pointing fingers to any sides...
TradeMark wrote:I agree, brainwashing is never good, and it should be stopped. Making all religions illegal would be the best choice.
Now this is very sad... Banning all religions? Making illegal something that is part and the very reason of our current existence, the natural human affection and tendency to ethical, philosophical, cosmological reasoning? You shouldn't think religion as an institution or dogmatic monotheistic monster in every case, but ultimately as a way of thinking and coping in life.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek »

Jazcash wrote:You're either a Christian or you're not. You cannot be in-between.
You can be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutherist.. etc.. etc. All christian all different. Many christians will call themselves christians but don't really give a shit about church or the bible.. they just have some ideas about god/jesus and were born 'christian'. There are of course people across this whole spectrum. I'll leave it to you to go round and decide who is christian and who doesn't match up.

What do you call your religion jazz? You believe in god?
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord »

SirArtturi wrote:And you people think that it is grown up and morally noble to insult and provoke in the first place? You think that it's alright to dishonor someones faith and worldview by drawing a totally tasteless picture of someones god fucking a pig just because it will defend your right of free speech? I say that is totally childish, no matter how well the end would justify the means, which although I really doubt.

Why is it so necessary to offend someones sacred things or hurt sensitive feelings intentionally? No other way to go?
Well the problem is when delusional troglodytes act upon the exact teachings of their religion and other people suffer for it. Religion has held the development of science back for millennia, and I believe for these reasons, its perfectly acceptable to discredit religion.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Curious

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

iirc jaz posted elsewhere on this forum he was a christain and beleived (and was doing his part in unholding) no sex before marriage

but my memory might be playing tricks on me
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Jazcash
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Re: Curious

Post by Jazcash »

momfreeek wrote:
Jazcash wrote:You're either a Christian or you're not. You cannot be in-between.
You can be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutherist.. etc.. etc. All christian all different. Many christians will call themselves christians but don't really give a shit about church or the bible.. they just have some ideas about god/jesus and were born 'christian'. There are of course people across this whole spectrum. I'll leave it to you to go round and decide who is christian and who doesn't match up.

What do you call your religion jazz? You believe in god?
A true Christian is somebody who has accepted God into their life and truly believes that Jesus died to save everybody's sins. In doing this truly, you automatically try and follow the way of the Bible. There is no "true" Christian on earth who hasn't done these things.

I haven't done these things, therefore I am not a Christian. However, I wish I was a Christian for many such reasons. I do believe in God.
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zwzsg
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Re: Curious

Post by zwzsg »

Jazcash wrote:Everything in life is an opinion. Even obvious things would depend upon the structure of the human mind being able to relate to consciousness of life.
My opinion is that you're a cake.
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Sucky_Lord
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Re: Curious

Post by Sucky_Lord »

Jazcash wrote:
momfreeek wrote:
Jazcash wrote:You're either a Christian or you're not. You cannot be in-between.
You can be a baptist, methodist, catholic, lutherist.. etc.. etc. All christian all different. Many christians will call themselves christians but don't really give a shit about church or the bible.. they just have some ideas about god/jesus and were born 'christian'. There are of course people across this whole spectrum. I'll leave it to you to go round and decide who is christian and who doesn't match up.

What do you call your religion jazz? You believe in god?
A true Christian is somebody who has accepted God into their life and truly believes that Jesus died to save everybody's sins. In doing this truly, you automatically try and follow the way of the Bible. There is no "true" Christian on earth who hasn't done these things.

I haven't done these things, therefore I am not a Christian. However, I wish I was a Christian for many such reasons. I do believe in God.
Wow there's only 2 criteria for Christianity?

So we're allowed to mercilessly bludgeon our families to death, and as long as we believe in God and Jesus as the saviour, we're true Christians?

You have an extremely narrow-minded, twisted idea of the world around you.
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momfreeek
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Re: Curious

Post by momfreeek »

Jazcash wrote:A true Christian is somebody who has accepted God into their life and truly believes that Jesus died to save everybody's sins. In doing this truly, you automatically try and follow the way of the Bible. There is no "true" Christian on earth who hasn't done these things.
But they don't follow EVERYTHING in the bible.. or they'd be stoning people left and right. Which is exactly where we came from.. the rules are picked and chosen not all followed blindly. Its not even clear what a lot of the rules are or what they mean. Theologists argue over these things like politicians.
Jazcash wrote:I haven't done these things, therefore I am not a Christian. However, I wish I was a Christian for many such reasons. I do believe in God.
you wish you were a christian? Do you feel too guilty to be a christian or something? Thats the whole frikkin point of christianity.. you are forgiven for your sins. The baptists will baptise you
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KaiserJ
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Re: Curious

Post by KaiserJ »

i apologize to everyone for my offensive product idea

(and humbly withdraw from this clusterfuck of a thread if possible)
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zwzsg
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Re: Curious

Post by zwzsg »

Sucky_Lord wrote:So we're allowed to mercilessly bludgeon our families to death, and as long as we believe in God and Jesus as the saviour, we're true Christians?
Actually, it goes together. By accepting Jesus as your lord and savior, you are confident that no matter how mercilessly you bludgeoned your family to death, you'll still be granted an eternity of bliss in heaven.
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