Construct additional pylons! - Page 2

Construct additional pylons!

A dynamic game undergoing constant development and refinement, that attempts to balance playability with fresh and innovative features.

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bobthedinosaur
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by bobthedinosaur »

mod options generally fix bitching
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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH »

SirMaverick wrote:
JohannesH wrote:Obviously I get more metal for my energy when I keep the overdrive rate at a constant. Not when energy storage is kept at same levels.
The idea is to use surplus of energy for overdrive, not all.

And you get more metal the more energy is used by overdrive.
Cmon... Of course you dont overdrive energy you need, I'm not stupid. But if you overdrive same amount of energy at a constant rate or variably according to storage... Naturally it is better to get the best rate available, if you can plan your economy for that.
And if Im m stalling it would make sense to not keep unused energy stored for nothing.
If you stall m you automatically aren't used all your e -> more e available for overdrive. And you probably want to have a reserve for all the things that need e: weapons, d-gun, reclaim etc.[/quote]
Maybe I want but at other times i dont. How does the game know what i want...
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Yogzototh
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Yogzototh »

After osme playtesting it kinda seemes like the the amounts of metal mined have been increased somehow. Ive checked the source and the overdrive equation is the same though. Maybe it felt that just because people porced more because they wanted to play with pylons, dunno.

Anyway, I loved this new featue on paper, and at the moment i cant say there are any real issues making it bad, other than forcing people to do a few more clicks.
The problem is that CA gameplay doesnt focus on territory control, with most of the economy concentrated in the main base and only defenses and mexes being located outside. After the first few minutes when the borders are decided, the combat revolves mostly about controlling the wreckfields and reclaiming, not controlling the mexes.
And the games with few players on large open maps usually dont go beyond basic overdrive level as well, so i cant think of a setup where controlling and maintaining your energy grid and raiding the enemy one would be really important. And since bases are usually concentrated in small spaces, i dont think making factories depend on energy grids would do anything other than force players to do more clicks.

Plus i still dont fully understand how exactly the system works, here's an example, please explain how energy wiill be distributed in the following setup:

Lest say the player has constant drain of 150 energy, each mex makes 10m and each fusion generates 100e.
There are 2 energy grids:
1) One grid has 1 mex and 2 fusions (lets say they all are connected to one pylon)
2)The other grid has 3 mexes and 1 fusion, (lets say there are 2 pylons, one controlling 3 mexes and the other contorlling the fusion)
In addition, there is 1 fusion and 1 mex unconnected to any grids.
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Tribulex
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Tribulex »

well ca's eco IS simple. You never have to worry about e overflow, you just spam energy and your mexes have basically a built-in metal maker.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl »

The amount of energy available to a local grid through local energy sources is only used to calculate the maximum amount of energy that can be spent on overdrive for the local metal extractors.

That is, your 1mex3fus vs 3mex1fus? If the total free energy (due to spending on construction and units) is less than 1/3(fusions) * fusionE * 4(mexes), then the same amount of energy is spent on all of the overdriven mexes. If the total free energy is greater than 1/3 * fusionE * 4, then the 3 mexes located in the 1fus network will hit their cap (1/3 of a fus) and the remaining free E will go to the 4th overdriven mex (the one that has 3 fus on it and thus has an overdrive-cap of 3*FusionE.

And of course, the mex outside the grid gets no overdrive, and the fusion outside of the grid can't contribute to the overdrive-cap.

Basically, think of the energy-sources on the network as the energy that is *available* to use for overdrive on the local metal extractors... the energy will still be allocated in the most optimal way, but that availability provides a local upper-limit.
SirMaverick
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by SirMaverick »

JohannesH wrote:But if you overdrive same amount of energy at a constant rate or variably according to storage... Naturally it is better to get the best rate available, if you can plan your economy for that.
That's wrong in 3 ways:
Some constant e rate used for overdrive is less then using "all available" (=everything above 80%) energy for overdrive. You don't have constant e production if you use wind. You don't have a constant e usage if you use reclaim or weapons etc.
Even if you want a constant rate you won't be able to keep it.
If you stall m you automatically aren't used all your e -> more e available for overdrive. And you probably want to have a reserve for all the things that need e: weapons, d-gun, reclaim etc.
Maybe I want but at other times i dont. How does the game know what i want...
You have a reserve, that's a design decision.
Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog »

Lest say the player has constant drain of 150 energy, each mex makes 10m and each fusion generates 100e.
There are 2 energy grids:
1) One grid has 1 mex and 2 fusions (lets say they all are connected to one pylon)
2)The other grid has 3 mexes and 1 fusion, (lets say there are 2 pylons, one controlling 3 mexes and the other contorlling the fusion)
In addition, there is 1 mex unconnected to any grids.
Firstly the sum of squared mex output is used to determine the most efficient way to overdrive, I think Evil4Zerggin did the calculus a while ago. Only the overdriven mexes contribute to the sum.

Mex squared sum = (10^2 )*4 = 400

excess energy = 3 fusions - 150 = 150
(Note: I misread and only saw 3 fusions, I cannot be bothered recalculating it all, the only thing the 4th fusion would do is add another 100 to excess energy)

each grid is then looped through. Lets say the 1 mex + 2 fusion is first.

Loop through the mexes in the first grid.
(
mexE = excess energy*(metal^2) / Mex squared sum = 150*100/400 = 37.5 energy
Overdrive = -1+(1+(37.5*0.2))^0.5 = 1.92
extra metal = 19.1
) x 1

Loop through the mexes in the second grid.
(
mexE = excess energy*(metal^2) / Mex squared sum = 150*100/400 = 37.5 energy
Overdrive = -1+(1+(37.5*0.2))^0.5 = 1.92
extra metal = 19.1
) x 3
on the third loop the grid notices that it is trying to spend 112.5 energy (37.5*3) on the mexes in the grid when it only has 100 energy connected. All the previously calculated extra metal does not count towards the overdrive output as the efficiency is wrong (except previously maxed grids as they are unaffected).

Loop through the mexes in the second grid with Grid Maxed.
The grid has it's own Mex squared sum.
Grid Mex squared sum = 300
(
mexE = max grid energy*(metal^2) / Grid Mex squared sum = 100*100/300=33.3 energy
Overdrive = -1+(1+(33.3*0.2))^0.5 = 1.77
extra metal = 17.7
) x 3

excess energy = excess energy - maxed grid energy
Mex squared sum = Mex squared sum - Grid Mex squared sum

All the other grids are recalculated using the new excess energy and mex squared sum (except the grids flagged as Maxed).

Loop through the mexes in the first grid.
(
mexE = excess energy*(metal^2) / Mex squared sum = 50*100/100= 50 energy
Overdrive = -1+(1+(50*0.2))^0.5 = 2.32
extra metal = 23.2
) x 1

So the total overdrive metal is 23.2 * (17.7 * 3) = 76.2 metal

Note if all the grids were attached the total output would be 19.1 * 4 = 76.4 metal (that's slightly better).

In the 4 fusion example there would be 3 mexes with 33.3 energy and a mex with 150 energy, the difference in efficiency would be a lot more noticeable.
Saktoth
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Saktoth »

MATHSPLOSION.

I don't think most people can easily grasp the efficiency rates of overdriven mexes. Though the pylon system itself (e available to overdrive any one mex is capped to a max of whatever is connected to it via the grid) is pretty clear.


I really, really agree with Yogs point here. The game is already quite reclaim heavy, and by centralising the economy and re-emphasising mex control, we make it even more reclaim heavy. I dont have so much of a problem with slightly more centralized econ (less landgrab) but on the whole, putting overdrive beyind a pylon means we've lost a lot of metal from non-reclaim sources.
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hoijui
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by hoijui »

do not know if this has been asked already, but how does this work together with communism mode?
eg.. as there is no global overdrive anymore, what does happen with the shared.. the global energy?
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JohannesH
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by JohannesH »

SirMaverick wrote:
JohannesH wrote:But if you overdrive same amount of energy at a constant rate or variably according to storage... Naturally it is better to get the best rate available, if you can plan your economy for that.
That's wrong in 3 ways:
Some constant e rate used for overdrive is less then using "all available" (=everything above 80%) energy for overdrive. You don't have constant e production if you use wind. You don't have a constant e usage if you use reclaim or weapons etc.
Even if you want a constant rate you won't be able to keep it.
This is ridiculous. I dont need to have constant e production nor e spending, to keep overdrive rate constant. And it doesnt mean I'd necessarily excess e either.
SirMaverick
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by SirMaverick »

hoijui wrote:do not know if this has been asked already, but how does this work together with communism mode?
eg.. as there is no global overdrive anymore, what does happen with the shared.. the global energy?
Communism now forced. Latest stable still has the mod option, but it's non-functional.
JohannesH wrote:I dont need to have constant e production nor e spending, to keep overdrive rate constant. And it doesnt mean I'd necessarily excess e either.
No you don't need to. But it's harder and you'll have to stop spending e on other things once e spending increases (and it will) or e production changes.
Having a constant overdrive rate is not the optimum.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl »

I still think that even needing E-store is counter-intuitive. You build e-storage to give your E more room to optimize your overdrive, since excessing E still means that E is somewhat wasted (it is spent on overdrive inefficiently). This is non-obvious to the user - most players never build a single E-store.
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knorke
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by knorke »

always wondering this, overdrive gets less effective at higher rates, correct?
so if i have a full e storage, would it blow all the energy instantly, making like +100m for a half second or does it make +50m for 10 seconds, which would mean more m produced in the end?
how will this change with the new system?
numbers are made up obv.
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hoijui
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by hoijui »

:D :D :D
enforced communism!!

you did not directly answer my question though, do you expect me to read the whole commit?

btw, found a typo in the commit you linked there (right at start):

Code: Select all

desc      = "Controls mex overload anbd pylon grid",
Google_Frog
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Google_Frog »

do not know if this has been asked already, but how does this work together with communism mode?
eg.. as there is no global overdrive anymore, what does happen with the shared.. the global energy?
Overdrive and pylons are not effected by player team.

Here is the only things done with player teams:
  • Each player team submits energy if they are over the overdrive threshold and requests energy if they are below 50% energy. Energy is shared to the requesters and the rest is used for overdrive.
  • Each player receives an equal share of overdrive income and mex income.
Everything else is done on the ally team scale. Pylons, Mexes and Energy(for grid max purposes) effectively belong to everyone.
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Tribulex
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Tribulex »

omg tldr we have to know maths now to do ca? dammit
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl »

d_b wrote:omg tldr we have to know maths now to do ca? dammit
Always did. The "Overdrive" system involves a logarithmic diminishing-returns function. Now, because it makes diminishing returns (IE overdriving 2E/mex gets you more Metal-per-E than overdriving 4E/mex) it means that you want to avoid spikes in overdrive - keeping overdrive a nice constant low (IE, I have 10 E over 5 seconds... better to spend 2E/second for each of those 5 seconds than to spend no E for 4 seconds and 10E in 1 second) means that the system managing the overdrive must be pretty complex to give the player optimal performance.
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Tribulex
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Tribulex »

yeah but you can say 'logarithmic diminishing returns' and I know what do do. Can someone sum up pylons in a similarly concise (less than 6 and a half words) manner? I really dont want to read this thread, despite its possibly fascinating forays into nitty gritty game economy details.
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Pxtl
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Pxtl »

d_b wrote:yeah but you can say 'logarithmic diminishing returns' and I know what do do. Can someone sum up pylons in a similarly concise (less than 6 and a half words) manner? I really dont want to read this thread, despite its possibly fascinating forays into nitty gritty game economy details.
Pylons connect nearby powersources and mexes together for overdrive.
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Tribulex
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Re: Construct additional pylons!

Post by Tribulex »

oh cool. now thats actually a good idea. Solves the "magical energy and metal transportation" issue.
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