Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Balanced Annihilation with remade Units

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abma
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Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by abma » 14 Oct 2016, 17:26

This basicly is a question to Beherith as he is (afaik) the copyright holder of many/most BAR-models (the lua code is GPL):

It is a long-time rumor that BAR will be released "soon" and when this is done the license of the models will be changed to a license which allows them to be used in other projects or for example move the repository to git/some other hosting site. The issue i see here that only the person holding the copyright of the models can change this.

What should/will happen with BAR when you (Beherith) disappears? or:
When will the models be released under a license which allows them to be reused so others can/could continue the project? What goal needs to be reached?


please: only Beherith respond to this thread expect sth. is wrong in this post/question.
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Silentwings
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Silentwings » 14 Oct 2016, 18:45

Fyi, although it was sometimes the case that we hoped to release a stable installable package and didn't, I don't ever recall anything being said about the status of the models.
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Beherith
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Beherith » 24 Oct 2016, 12:38

I apologize for the delay in responding to everyone, but I was having some major issues with a kidney stone and some unrelated HDD failures.

On the topic of migrating BA to github:
I am completely fine with BA migrating to github, if the developers who are actively maintaining it find that it is easier for collaboration than trac+svn, then sure, whatever makes your job easier, go for it! The only issue I foresee is that you are hosting copyrighted cavedog (iirc currently owned by Wargaming.net of world of tanks and world of warplanes fame) on github.

I do not recall adding anything to the BA repo that I would like to assert copyright on (artwork or other). And I would like to pass on BA to whoever wishes to maintain it.

Regarding the future of BAR post:

I must admit that I unfortunately now lack the time to make a proper release.
The current status of BAR as it stands is the the following:
- All models, wrecks, animations, projectiles, textures are now non-TA ip. The only thing of ambiguity is some of the CEG textures in /bitmaps, as I am uncertain of their origin.
- Sounds, there are two complete sets of sound replacements for BAR, one done by Ares, one done by Kanoba. Both of these could probably benefit from a remastering to bring them into a consistent state, but otherwise they are full, working sets. They have yet to be added to the game itself, but are inside the repository under /etc
- Interface: the absolutely amazing Chili interface spearheaded by Funkencool and Silentwings is fast and beautiful, I see no better alternative.
- There are a few stragglers though, the faction names and icons (Core and Arm) are obviously still infringing, and I suspect that the name Krogoth is also a grey area. I do not think that other unit names are an issue.

Forboding Angel asked me the following (no offense meant by posting it)
Hey, I just wanted to ask is it were possible for BA to use the models in BAR. I understand that there has not been an official BAR release yet, however, it seems as though that release might be quite some distance in the future. It would be really cool, if we were able to replace various things in BA with content from BAR. Mainly just the models at this point, but then eventually moving on to replacing sounds and things of that nature with free/gpl/cc0 content.

I know that this is a bit of a contentious subject, but on the other hand I didn't see any real harm in asking.

Thanks! :-D
The plan from the start was to replace BA with BAR. The way the SVN repo was managed was BAR was branched off from the BA branch, so that all the balance changes that pertained to unit/weapondefs could easily be merged back, which was last performed quite some time ago.

There will obviously be some unintended balance differences relating to hitsphere changes (which I tried to keep similar), and due to the changes in animation (which was also done to try and keep the timings as similar as possible).

By this point BA and BAR have diverged in balance, but this is not a show-stopper; I have no ties to the balance snapshot of the last merge.

The main point of divergence is the UI. Floris et al have done a great job with the BA UI improvements, but I feel that their visuals and usability are lacking, even though they obviously cater to the hardcore crowd.

To answer the Forbs question: that was the goal from the start, but by now I feel that the models, anims and UI have evolved into an unsplittable package.

So, please tell me what your thoughts are!
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Silentwings
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Silentwings » 24 Oct 2016, 17:33

My thoughts are that BAR should aim for standalone lobby-less singleplayer experience, with its own installer, and ignore online play for the time being. There is not much left to do game-side for this and I do still plan to make it myself; all it needs is some lua code to DL the missions+maps and a few small bug fixes.

I too am not opposed to BA/BAR diverging at this point; there is certainly no lost time in doing so. BA is ofc free to use any of my lua code which is all GPL'ed anyway. My impression is that BA players are pretty happy with their current gfx + UI and (imo sensibly) do not give a toss about long harrumphed and probably by now 100% unenforceable OTA copyright.

@Behe: I guess we should remove BA from trac? I'd like to keep BAR sitting where it is, for now, assuming ofc that you're still happy to run the trac host.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Forboding Angel » 24 Oct 2016, 17:39

So to be perfectly clear, you are saying that no other project can use the bar models?

That's highly unfortunate, because there are a lot of *a projects that would benefit. Sounds and the other infringing stuff is simple comparatively, models and textures, not so much.

In the meantime BAR is relegated to one step above vaporware.
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nixtux
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by nixtux » 24 Oct 2016, 20:24

@forbs
That's highly unfortunate, because there are a lot of *a projects that would benefit. Sounds and the other infringing stuff is simple comparatively, models and textures, not so much.
Coming from a *A mod i total disagree with you here, it would only benefit BA all other *A mod contain way too many different model than BA.

Im with beherith here BAR should stay as one package.
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abma
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by abma » 24 Oct 2016, 21:24

nixtux wrote:Coming from a *A mod i total disagree with you here, it would only benefit BA all other *A mod contain way too many different model than BA.

Im with beherith here BAR should stay as one package.
thats not the point here: the models currently in BA are copied from Total Annihilation. Very likely the "different models" aren't copied from TA: when the replacement could be used in BA based games the point "their distribution is potentially in breach of copyright laws and therefore not officially endorsed by the Spring RTS team." wouldn't apply any more.
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nixtux
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by nixtux » 24 Oct 2016, 21:53

@abma
thats not the point here: the models currently in BA are copied from Total Annihilation. Very likely the "different models" aren't copied from TA: when the replacement could be used in BA based games the point "their distribution is potentially in breach of copyright laws and therefore not officially endorsed by the Spring RTS team." wouldn't apply any more.
Im well aware and that not the point i was making, I was on about the visual difference from the BAR to current *A it would look a mess and i for one would never do it, there a mess of mismatched model already.
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Forboding Angel » 25 Oct 2016, 04:04

Im well aware and that not the point i was making, I was on about the visual difference from the BAR to current *A it would look a mess and i for one would never do it, there a mess of mismatched model already.
I am so sick and tired of hearing this cop-out bullshit argument from people who should know better.

User was warned for this post. Felony 1. (Silentwings)
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nixtux
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by nixtux » 25 Oct 2016, 09:16

@forbs
I am so sick and tired of hearing this cop-out bullshit argument from people who should know better.
yep i agree you should know better using other *A mod in an argument to get leverage, without checking what there point of view is first.
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Beherith
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Beherith » 25 Oct 2016, 10:24

Also, a main point of the models is that the entire unitshader systen and deferred lights are designed for them. Those at the very least go hand in hand
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Forboding Angel
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by Forboding Angel » 25 Oct 2016, 10:43

Beherith wrote:Also, a main point of the models is that the entire unitshader systen and deferred lights are designed for them. Those at the very least go hand in hand
This is one of those models without any of that.
Image

Regardless, you've made it pretty clear behe, there isn't any point in rehashing it.

@nixtux, you need to re-read what abma wrote:
abma wrote:thats not the point here: the models currently in BA are copied from Total Annihilation. Very likely the "different models" aren't copied from TA: when the replacement could be used in BA based games the point "their distribution is potentially in breach of copyright laws and therefore not officially endorsed by the Spring RTS team." wouldn't apply any more.
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nixtux
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Re: Future of BAR? (=How to increase the bus factor of BAR?)

Post by nixtux » 25 Oct 2016, 11:24

Thanks Forbs but I did read it clearly the first time, and as I stated added thoses model would only benefit BA, all other *A have model with textures that would still infringe. So still no official endorsement imo.
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