Balance algorithm clarity and visibility for players

Balance algorithm clarity and visibility for players

SpringRTS Perl Autohost for Dedicated Server

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Kixu
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Balance algorithm clarity and visibility for players

Post by Kixu » 18 Sep 2010, 15:08

Really needs to be somewhere to display the !chrank of players, and it needs to be public. I think some admins make themselves lower ranks :|
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Jazcash
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Jazcash » 18 Sep 2010, 18:37

Kixu wrote:Really needs to be somewhere to display the !chrank of players, and it needs to be public. I think some admins make themselves lower ranks :|
That goes for !clan too.
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 18 Sep 2010, 18:57

Kixu wrote:Really needs to be somewhere to display the !chrank of players, and it needs to be public. I think some admins make themselves lower ranks :|
The ranks taken into account by SPADS for balancing are shown in output of standard commands such as !status, !whois, !smurfs etc., but only for users who have sufficient rights to execute !chrank themselves. It is not available for everyone because some autohost admins down't want to make smurfs information public, and seeing the real rank taken into account by SPADS would reveal this information.
Jazcash wrote:That goes for !clan too.
No, the point of the "clan" and "shareId" preferences is that you can make them private so noone can try to team/shareId with you if you don't want to.
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 21 Sep 2010, 15:51

seriously, this is not funny

Image
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 21 Sep 2010, 17:26

This is why:

Code: Select all

[Tue Sep 21 15:41:06 2010] <[PinK]KWD> !pset clan PiRO
[Tue Sep 21 15:41:18 2010] <Ye> !pset clan PiRO
But thanks for the report, you're right, your example made me realize I should decrease the default unbalance tolerance for clan preference to 5% instead of 10%. In other words, the default value for clanMode preset setting should be "tag;pref(5)" instead of "tag;pref(10)", so that it will be less permissive for clan preferences that ruin balance.

For the record I did the calculations for your example, and the unbalance increase due to clan preferences was just under the allowed 10% limit: optimal balance for this set of ranks and clan tags produces a balance deviation of 2%, whereas balance honoring clan tags + clan preferences produces a balance deviation of 11%.
11-2 < 10, that's why it was accepted by SPADS.

I will modify the default value, but anyway, if you encounter balance problems like this due to clan preferences, don't hesitate to change the clanMode setting from "tag;pref" to "tag" with command "!set clanMode tag", so that it will ignore clan preferences and only honor clan tags.
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 22 Sep 2010, 07:54

coolio ! worst thing about pset is (like this example) that u can pset with some clan and they dont have to 'pset back', what is bs
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 22 Sep 2010, 13:54

btw, i was wondering, spads detects smurfs, if im not wrong it balances with highest detected rank, right ? if not, well, it would be cool if spads could do this, if yes, it doesnt work in my opinion D:
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 22 Sep 2010, 14:30

Wombat wrote:btw, i was wondering, spads detects smurfs, if im not wrong it balances with highest detected rank, right ?
If it's configured to do so, yes.
Wombat wrote:if yes, it doesnt work in my opinion D:
Do you have an example?
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 22 Sep 2010, 15:21

most of the games ? :D lot of vets/gold stars playing with silver stars, sometimes lower, host doesnt fix balance.

but, if its set by host not default, well it explains everything (just so there is no misunderstanding, by spads i mean all hosts using spads ;P the one u host work properly i think)
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 22 Sep 2010, 16:40

By default, userDataRetention is disabled on SPADS (which means it can't detect smurfs by IPs), and rankMode is set to "account" (which means it uses lobby account ranks for balancing and not IP ranks).

An easy way to know if current smurfs in the battleroom are detected is to use the "!balance" command. It will usually say that teams were already balanced, but it will also tell you if and how many smurfs were found.
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 30 Sep 2010, 15:10

Image

Image

i dont think they pset'd
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 30 Sep 2010, 16:43

Wombat wrote:Image
i dont think they pset'd
Unfortunately this screenshot alone doesn't mean much to me because:
1) The game didn't start yet, so maybe the battle hasn't been (auto)balanced yet (SPADS only auto-balances when nothing changed in the battleroom for 2 seconds, so that it doesn't spam the lobby server with forceteam commands whenever a player joins/leaves).
2) Even if the game has been balanced by SPADS, I can't check the active configuration when this balance happened because I don't own this autohost so I can't check the logs. There are plenty of ways to alter default SPADS configuration to allow such weird balances (autoBalance, autoBlockBalance, balanceMode, clanMode ...)
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Zydox
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Zydox » 01 Oct 2010, 07:04

What we need is a way to publicly list users ranks, both the lobby one and the chrank one :-)
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 21 Oct 2010, 10:35

Zydox wrote:What we need is a way to publicly list users ranks, both the lobby one and the chrank one :-)
In next SPADS update (0.9.5), ranks taken into account for balancing will be shown to regular users too in !status and !whois outputs.
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 01 Dec 2010, 17:44

Answer of this post
klapmongool wrote:Bibim, im pretty sure that wont really work since the balance system is based on playtime and as such ignores skill and smurfs.
No, balance can be configured to take smurfs into account automatically through IP address, and/or use manual ranks given by autohost owners for specific players.
klapmongool wrote:Maybe you can explain why people should have the right to pset to someone who doesnt want them psetted to them?
Currently this can only happen for players with clan tags, because their clan string is known by other players, who then can do "!pset clan <theirTag>" to try to be in same team.
klapmongool wrote:At the very least provide a way (a command) for people to ignore psets.
If you mean you don't want others to be able to set their clan preference to same value as yours, it's very easy: just say "!pSet clan <whateverHere>" in private to the autohost, that way noone will know your clan preference.
If you mean you want to be able to disable the clan preference functionnality entirely on the autohost, it's very easy too, just change the clanMode setting to "tag" (instead of "tag;pref"), with "!set clanMode tag" command.
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klapmongool
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by klapmongool » 01 Dec 2010, 18:57

bibim wrote:No, balance can be configured to take smurfs into account automatically through IP address, and/or use manual ranks given by autohost owners for specific players.
Taking smurfs into account, cool, but how do you know the 'real' skill level of a smurf? (on the topic of smurfs, i'd argue that their identity should not be protected, as a default setting). And manual rank setting requires a lot of effort by the owners, it is useful for fixing balance issues with regular players but not really the best way to solve all issues.
bibim wrote: Currently this can only happen for players with clan tags, because their clan string is known by other players, who then can do "!pset clan <theirTag>" to try to be in same team.
Yes, and that is exactly where the problem lies: people !psetting with clanplayers. On a regular basis I see people !psetting up with PiRO or Fx; thus eliminating the last change to get a balanced game going. This is especially done by the players who have the skill level to balance these games. Besides, why should other people be able to pset themselves to a player who is in a clan if that player doesn't want that? My question stands.
bibim wrote: If you mean you don't want others to be able to set their clan preference to same value as yours, it's very easy: just say "!pSet clan <whateverHere>" in private to the autohost, that way noone will know your clan preference.

If you mean you want to be able to disable the clan preference functionnality entirely on the autohost, it's very easy too, just change the clanMode setting to "tag" (instead of "tag;pref"), with "!set clanMode tag" command.
See what you are suggesting here? The first solution requires clans to set a 'secret' value as pset value, the second solution disables clans to use this 'secret' value because it requires the use of the clantag itself. When some clans/owners like the first solution and others like the second only the second one will be usable (This is in fact already the case). Thus the first is crap (also for a number of other reasons) and the second has its own problems: Not all hosts (will) apply this rule. It doesn't really deal with the principle either; a player should have the right not to subjected to the !pset preference of another player to him/her. Maybe you can add in a pset option that allows clanmode tag on a personal level?

Finally, ty for discussing this and taking this criticism. I like your work on autohosts.
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 14 Dec 2010, 10:47

klapmongool wrote:Taking smurfs into account, cool, but how do you know the 'real' skill level of a smurf?
Depending on autohost configuration, it's either the rank manually affected by autohost admin, or the highest lobby rank of his detected smurf accounts. Sure, lobby rank (time spent in game) isn't a reliable skill indicator, but that's a different problem, which exists for non-smurf players too.
klapmongool wrote:(on the topic of smurfs, i'd argue that their identity should not be protected, as a default setting).
Why? Personally I think current behaviour (showing only the real rank taken into account by SPADS for balancing) is good.
klapmongool wrote:And manual rank setting requires a lot of effort by the owners, it is useful for fixing balance issues with regular players but not really the best way to solve all issues.
It's quite used by some autohost admins, and it's actually quite effective because regular players are the ones who smurf the most...
Also, when an autohost admin is in the battle, he can fine-tune the balance this way, seeing in real time how it affects balanced teams. And since these manually affected ranks are persistent, all future battles with these players will benefit from these adjusted ranks.
klapmongool wrote:Yes, and that is exactly where the problem lies: people !psetting with clanplayers. On a regular basis I see people !psetting up with PiRO or Fx; thus eliminating the last change to get a balanced game going. This is especially done by the players who have the skill level to balance these games. Besides, why should other people be able to pset themselves to a player who is in a clan if that player doesn't want that? My question stands.

See what you are suggesting here? The first solution requires clans to set a 'secret' value as pset value, the second solution disables clans to use this 'secret' value because it requires the use of the clantag itself. When some clans/owners like the first solution and others like the second only the second one will be usable (This is in fact already the case). Thus the first is crap (also for a number of other reasons) and the second has its own problems: Not all hosts (will) apply this rule. It doesn't really deal with the principle either; a player should have the right not to subjected to the !pset preference of another player to him/her. Maybe you can add in a pset option that allows clanmode tag on a personal level?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that it's not a good thing to allow random players to try to be in the same team as clan players who didn't set their clan preference (and that's why I plan to fix it).

What I just meant is it shouldn't be a very big problem because:
1) When I implemented the clan preference system, I also implemented a way to limit the unbalance produced by clan preferences. But the default configuration used to be too permissive concerning clan preferences (cf this post), and I still think this is the main reason you observed unbalanced battles produced by clan preferences.
2) There are ways to prevent this to happen (even if they aren't perfect as you explained)
klapmongool wrote:Finally, ty for discussing this and taking this criticism. I like your work on autohosts.
You're welcome.
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 14 Dec 2010, 11:00

could u plz show somehow pset in !status results ? i mean, who use pset ofc
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bibim
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by bibim » 14 Dec 2010, 11:12

Wombat wrote:could u plz show somehow pset in !status results ? i mean, who use pset ofc
You mean showing who uses clan preferences (without showing the value) in !status output? Hum that could be nice indeed... Thing is !status output must not be too long to avoid wrapped lines, but I will see what I can do.
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Wombat
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Re: SPADS AutoHost beta release

Post by Wombat » 14 Dec 2010, 11:57

it can basicly be additional column called pset and just one sign under it if someone use it. or something like that, anyway would be cool
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