Now we need this info about spring engine....

Now we need this info about spring engine....

An "ADVENTURERS" project, seeking to produce a Dune RTS inspired by the efforts of and portrayals by Westwood and Lynch.

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KiviTheBird
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Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by KiviTheBird » 09 Apr 2011, 13:21

Here i will ask any info i need to adaptate design document to spring
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KiviTheBird
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by KiviTheBird » 09 Apr 2011, 13:22

QUESTION

How to compare one length unit of spring to meter unit in 3d s max?
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smoth
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by smoth » 09 Apr 2011, 16:22

You have to decide that on project level no project uses the same scale and it isn't like dune has exact measurements. Although it would be cool if you, s44 and starwars:iw used the same scale
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luckywaldo7
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by luckywaldo7 » 09 Apr 2011, 16:30

There is a good page about some measurement stuff here:
http://trac.caspring.org/wiki/UnitsOfMeasurement
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Johannes
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by Johannes » 09 Apr 2011, 16:49

smoth wrote:You have to decide that on project level no project uses the same scale and it isn't like dune has exact measurements. Although it would be cool if you, s44 and starwars:iw used the same scale
IMO, S44 scale is too small - basically all you ever see is icons or tiny tiny dots when looking at infantrymen while playing, I wouldn't suggest to emulate that.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by Google_Frog » 09 Apr 2011, 17:00

s44 scale is good if you want large maps. It makes the average sized map feel large which is good because very large maps can take longer to load and probably take a better computer to run. You can't really go much smaller than s44 as their infantry have a size of 1x1 which is the smallest unit of footprint. Johannes makes a good point that if your unit models are small and ranges are big it can be hard to see your units.

It depends on the scale range of your units. If tanks and buildings are going to be significantly larger than infantry you may have to go with the smallest size for infantry. Whatever is done I would not go any larger than 2x2 as that would make tanks very large.

Anyway for a design document you could just talk in relative scales as the scales available within the engine are not easily explained as there are many factors affecting how well things work at various scales. Or you could just pick a scale that seems reasonable and work with respect to it. A decent scale to start with would be 16x16 elmos for the size of infantry as 2 other games already use it.
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smoth
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by smoth » 09 Apr 2011, 17:18

Johannes wrote: IMO, S44 scale is too small - basically all you ever see is icons or tiny tiny dots when looking at infantrymen while playing, I wouldn't suggest to emulate that.
*Groans* he is asking about model scale with relation to the world they are in. Not the battle size johan. S44 infantry are huge compared to people in gundam(and by extension ta)
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FLOZi
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by FLOZi » 09 Apr 2011, 17:21

Visual scale is entirely relative to engagement range (weapon range) anyway. S44 could be made to look 10x bigger without touching a single model.
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smoth
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by smoth » 09 Apr 2011, 17:22

and weapon ranges are not what the author is asking about... just so johan gets that clearly.
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smoth
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by smoth » 09 Apr 2011, 17:31

Hit up flozi in lobby
[10:24:40] <[S44]FLOZi> Units of Measurement
[10:24:41] <[S44]FLOZi> The game runs in real time (i.e. 1 game second = 1 real life second).
[10:24:41] <[S44]FLOZi> Model scale is 8 elmos per meter.
[10:24:41] <[S44]FLOZi> Unit speed scale is the same as model scale. 1 elmo / frame (i.e. the value in the unitdef) = 3.75 m/s = 13.5 kph = 7.29 kt = 8.39 mph = 12.3 fps.
[10:24:41] <[S44]FLOZi> Weapon range scale is roughly 1 elmo per meter, but this is very flexible, since a strict translation would not be good for gameplay.
[10:24:41] <[S44]FLOZi> Weapon velocity scale is 2 elmos/s per m/s, a compromise between model scale and weapon range scale.
[10:24:41] <smoth> this new guy could probably benifit from it
[10:24:59] <[S44]FLOZi> according to a post in s44 dev forum by zerg
[10:25:12] <smoth> mind if I copy paste that?
[10:25:17] <[S44]FLOZi> sure
[10:25:28] <[S44]FLOZi> no idea how true it is to s44 at current (i assume mostly)
[10:26:04] <[S44]FLOZi> models are mostly scaled 'by eye' by spiked
[10:26:20] <smoth> oh so you guys rescale yuritch's work?
[10:26:22] <[S44]FLOZi> even some of yuris will be scaled up slightly to match the rest


in a convo with yuritch(one of the main modelers in s44)
[10:27:10] <[S44]yuritch> Maybe. I'll explain how I scale my models
[10:27:58] <[S44]yuritch> I model them with 1 unit = 1 meter (in Autocad that is). Then I export them to .dxf, import into 3DO Builder, scale remains the same. Then I scale them by a factor of 2.54
[10:28:01] <[S44]yuritch> And that's it
[10:28:32] <smoth> mind if I post that? I am trying to help a new guy figure out scaling in his project
[10:28:51] <[S44]yuritch> Post that if it helps, sure

And there you have it..
Of course some "by eye" scaling is used. but yeah, that is roughly what they use in s44 kivi. I suggested scaling similarly to them as they are largely infantry with mobile units.
Whatever is done I would not go any larger than 2x2 as that would make tanks very large.
Tanks are very large.

Kivi, can you post a shot of a tank next to an infantry unit?
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FLOZi
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by FLOZi » 09 Apr 2011, 19:11

Largest tank in S44, King Tiger, is something like 5x5.

IIRC movedefs only really accept up to a meagre 4x4, but I may be wrong, and even if I'm right, it may have changed by now (in master at least)
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MidKnight
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by MidKnight » 09 Apr 2011, 19:46

This very, very sad picture serves as a good real-life size comparison between humans and tanks:
Image
Keep in mind that your scale doesn't have to reflect real life. In fact, few RTS games actually use a realistic scale.
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Johannes
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by Johannes » 09 Apr 2011, 22:44

FLOZi wrote:Visual scale is entirely relative to engagement range (weapon range) anyway. S44 could be made to look 10x bigger without touching a single model.
And then you'd use 10x smaller maps if you'd want to retain gameplay, unless I'm missing something here?
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SinbadEV
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by SinbadEV » 10 Apr 2011, 01:55

How many elmos to a 3DS unit (meter?) is what I think he's asking... so that he can scale before exporting to objs.
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KiviTheBird
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by KiviTheBird » 10 Apr 2011, 10:13

okay i just need this to rescale our building radiuses and speeds. thanx


QUESTION
Please show me big factory in screenshot of engine(ingame) with its dimensions in elmos.
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knorke
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by knorke » 10 Apr 2011, 21:43

as others said, you can use whatever scale you want.
http://answers.springlobby.info/questio ... -of-spring

there are some things that make a certain scale (+- ~500% the dimensions BA use or so) more desireable to use:
-fast projectiles can fly through very small units
-bigger maps use more memory
-if you want to use existing maps: those often have trees or other features on them that dictate the scale
-yardmaps of buildings is made up of "tiles", iirc one tile is 8x8 elmos so that is the smallest building you can have.
if you want a factory with a door that opens, your yardmap will have to be at least 3x3 or so, so you can have walls/doors like

Code: Select all

xxx
x.x
x-x
x= wall, . = unit is build here, - = door tile
-very large units clip into terrain more
-pathfinder has some maximum size on units

smallest units: infantry in Spring1944, flea in TA based games
biggest units: the conyard buildings in GundamRTS, ships in NOTA, tanks in spring tanks, that giant upgradeable spaceship in THIS, factories in evolution RTS

spawn some of those on a map like http://springfiles.com/spring/spring-maps/chessb2 to get a feel for the elmo scale.
then just chose anything between those and you'll be fine.
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smoth
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by smoth » 10 Apr 2011, 23:24

knorke wrote:biggest units: the conyard buildings in GundamRTS, ships in NOTA, tanks in spring tanks, that giant upgradeable spaceship in THIS, factories in evolution RTS
Image
This guy would like to have a word with you.
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Google_Frog
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by Google_Frog » 11 Apr 2011, 18:07

-fast projectiles can fly through very small units
Are you sure about this? collisionVolumeTest = 1 prevents fast LaserCannons from passing through units so it may fix any issues they could encounter with small units and fast projectiles. I have not tested, I only know what it does to fast LaserCannons (or did when I added the tag to fix LaserCannons in the first place).
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knorke
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by knorke » 11 Apr 2011, 18:48

Google_Frog wrote:collisionVolumeTest = 1 prevents fast LaserCannons from passing through units
oh thats what it does.
So it works correctly if you randomly find this thread (or this one) but nobody knows details.

Anyway dont want to derail., was just an example that Springs physics seem to work best in a certain dimension/speed range.
This guy
yea forgott about that one. Sadly also is an example of big (flying) units not working 100% nice because aircraft generally are a bit strange and with big units it becomes more obvious.
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AF
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Re: Now we need this info about spring engine....

Post by AF » 11 Apr 2011, 22:52

Where's that screenshot of a map with a scale unit imperial star destroyer from several years back that dwarfs the map and everything else?
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