Dear mod/game developer...

Dear mod/game developer...

Hearken back to the days of yore and enjoy the first major Spring module!

Moderators: Moderators, Content Developer

[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Dear mod/game developer...

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Heres a little bit of the conversation I had with Jools, do please take the time to read it. Ive edited the crap out of it to get to the point...
"[23:59:01] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> just a "slight" concern, theres no real change log posting for the new "patches"
[23:59:12] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> or what kloot is trying to aim for
[23:59:13] <[PRO]Jools> i know
[23:59:21] <[PRO]Jools> and i dont like all the patches either
[23:59:30] <[PRO]Jools> there is one in the latest patch
[23:59:37] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> noruas kinda went down that rout, and he got allot of heat for it
[00:00:01] <[PRO]Jools> what route? to not have a changelog?
[00:00:32] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> every main modder has his own ideals for xta, ive no proplem with that. but it would be good for the community to have a little debate about it
[00:01:04] <[PRO]Jools> http://pastebin.com/5utggUc8
[00:01:12] <[PRO]Jools> i know
[00:01:18] <[PRO]Jools> but no one writes on forums
[00:01:27] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> no, noruas went ahead and added stuff without letting peeps know about it. such as the landmine sweeper etc.. not to speak ill of noruas, hes one of the few people i truly admire
[00:01:46] <[PRO]Jools> deadnight does that too
[00:03:10] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> maybe people would write if more was posted up for them to speak an opinion on. i mean, its good to at least READ about the next patch, before it happens. so if i say for example, REALLY dont like an idea...like when dnw made the llt n gaat be able to hit airplains, i could of wrote about how i disliked it. there by myself having a voice on the matter..
[00:03:33] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> being a modder, boarders into politics some times haha
[00:03:37] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> stupid but true
[00:04:38] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> we have so few players left now a days, it would be a shame to loose them to silly little changes that they wernt consulted about...
[00:04:58] <[PRO]Jools> yes
[00:05:00] <[PRO]Jools> true
[00:05:05] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> im NOT bitching, dont get me wrong, i truly appreciate all the hard work that goes into xta
[00:05:23] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> but its a delicate fabric of a slim society
[00:05:30] <[PRO]Jools> yes
[00:06:25] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> i mean it man, u guys do good work that i personally aspire to. but PLEASE have a word with kloot about changes and general direction of the mod
[00:06:39] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> ive been playing this mod for almost 7 years....
[00:06:43] <[PRO]Jools> yeah we should
[00:06:54] <[PRO]Jools> the general direction is changing all the time
[00:07:05] <[PRO]Jools> i dont know if kloot or DNW is the modder now
[00:07:15] <[PRO]Jools> i guess it depends
[00:07:23] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> it would be a tragedy to see it go coz of old school players set in their ways of balace atc..
[00:08:45] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> well dnw hasent done anything for a while, so IM assuming its kloot. i dont have a problem with kloot....as long as he gets thats pathing system all 100% running :P lol, but i WISH he would make at least some effort to consult the community before experimenting with these "patches". u know what i mean ?
[00:09:07] <[PRO]Jools> yes
[00:09:18] <[PRO]Jools> well i dont like increased e cost of mines
[00:10:30] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> PERSONALLY i would like to see a little test patch where ak/pw had more dmg vs buildings, and hammer/thud had a more defined role against buildings and weaker vs units. but that entails armour bonuses, which xta has always been against. but PERSONALLY i think its a better way to go. but thats jut me
[00:11:00] <[PRO]Jools> maybe
[00:11:06] <[PRO]Jools> i dont know that part
[00:11:15] <[PRO]Jools> you have more experience with that
[00:12:17] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> mines are easy to counter, but slow game play ALLOT, so i see what his intention is, certainly. its a little unorthodox but a good EXPERIMENT. but it should be posted up, to see what players WANT. if they dont get what they WANT they wont play it = mod death
[00:12:46] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> i dont know about experience, but ive seen allot of shit go down, thats for sure
[00:12:49] <[PRO]Jools> some people want that
[00:12:59] <[PRO]Jools> but i think mines should be limited some other way
[00:13:18] <[PRO]Jools> like only let the minelayer build 5 a time and then have it need to rebuild them
[00:13:22] <[PRO]Jools> recharge w/e
[00:13:41] <[R0N1N]Shine_Gizmo> some do, but what about the others? they dont post because they dont feel like they are being listened to..... like i said, it boarders politics some times. which is silly but totally true
[00:14:06] <[PRO]Jools> yes
[00:14:31] <[PRO]Jools> anhyay
[00:14:39] <[PRO]Jools> gotta go sleeping
[00:14:42] <[PRO]Jools> see you!
[00:15:15] ** User is now offline.
[00:15:15] ** Server ** Chat closed."
So yeah, simply, PLEASE developers, be it dnw or kloot (and others), please post about your ideals and changes. I know there only PATCHES (ATM), but people play them as the current version. So if we (the players) have a general understanding of where youre heading, or what you propose as the best change, please let us have a say.

Theres not many of us left now, so our requests mean all the more. I respect AND appreciate all the work that you and the other modders contribute to the game. Truly i do, but please let us know in advance what your thinking. You guys are the ones working on it, but let us have our say. Thats all i ask!

Peace, love and rainbows to all...hehe

:-)

P.s
just to re-elaborate, im shizfaced and edited a fair bit for spelling misstkes. so if ive done something seriously wrong, jools, let me know man.

p.p.s
i want the old crasher sound back :(

p.p.s
whats up? knoxian@hotmail.co.uk
anyone play counter strike GO?
UT?
HL?
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

six views already, seriously someone please post up ya views!
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Posting to express my dissatisfaction that the xta community is almost non existent!!
enlarge the community!!!
We need XTA viagra.
User avatar
scifi
Posts: 848
Joined: 10 May 2009, 12:27

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by scifi »

Well these are "test" versions kloot is making so that people can test his changes. They are available to download(only trou his site).

You can sugest things to him ingame, we dont have to have dev sessions and forum posts, that didnt worked so well in the past, since 90% of the playerbase didnt participate on the forum.

I prefer, test the changes and suggest to the dev in the lobby.

Its actualy beneficial since kloot/dnw play with us. A real ingame discussion is a lot better than a forum one tbh.
User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by knorke »

mines were discussed often..see search.
imo they are ok, if a bit random. (but that is fun)

Rumpelstiltskin, /join xta, there is regular games..
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by babbles »

OH MY GOD

someone posted here!
[KnoX]ElementalGizmo
XTA Developer
Posts: 266
Joined: 24 Aug 2006, 01:33

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by [KnoX]ElementalGizmo »

Babz, u even play anymore?
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by babbles »

I don't even have it installed.
pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by pintle »

I think anyone who has actually been properly involved with XTA over the years knows my stance on undocumented/tested changes. Just to lay my cards on the table: They stopped me playing my favourite video game.

I held #1 on the ladder for several years, knew the game *inside out*, was playing ~4 hours a day most days. I stopped because undocumented changes, or changes for their own sake, that were not integrated to a comprehensive balance design broke the game.

People bitch and moan about mines; I have literally never seen a situation that makes me believe they are overpowered. Minesweeper bots are ludicrously cost efficient, not even taking into account the time and micro involved in using mines efficiently (i.e. screening them from at least LOS, preferably radar, and building them some place other than right outside your starting position). A lot of ZK devs/1v1ers have repeatedly owned experienced XTA players with a com in the middle of a pw blob. You can beat that with 1 mine, people never do tho, and then ZK devs come and tell me that's evidence of the inherent imba of a proper com....

I am rambling, so I'll wind it up: KnoX nailed XTA balance, pretty much. Yes there were tweaks to be done, especially Noruas' changes to the t2 eco, but the balance was largely sound. Dev's are gratifying their curiosity/ego by devving changes that are not necessary, and are certainly not based on the feedback of competitive 1v1. In the process, competitive 1v1 has been ruined.

I stopped playing Spring due to this fundamental dynamic: Engine and game get patched, lose functunality (pathing\framerate\widgets) and the balance is changed by (please do not take offence) mid to low skill players, without documentation or an explanation of why the change was made.

Edit: Fyi I just logged into SL, and for literally the first time since 2005, or whenever the channel was founded, (to my knowledge) #XTA is empty. Sad. Face.
User avatar
PepeAmpere
Posts: 587
Joined: 03 Jun 2010, 01:28

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by PepeAmpere »

Hehe. I stopped to play XTA when first version with comics graphic was released. And I started to play some other strange mod with small units and big ships.
User avatar
knorke
Posts: 7971
Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by knorke »

Dev's are gratifying their curiosity/ego by devving changes that are not necessary, and are certainly not based on the feedback of competitive 1v1.
My stance on most balance is "leave it as is, maybe it is not perfect but it is known."
So some changes annoy me too and some small changelist should be possible. (actually recently i saw one posted in chat by random luck, why is it not more visible?)
But one has to see that "gratifying curiosity/ego" is the only payment you get for working on spring. If people volunteer for that imo they have some right to make a silly animation for commander or adjust balance a bit.
Edit: Fyi I just logged into SL, and for literally the first time since 2005, or whenever the channel was founded, (to my knowledge) #XTA is empty. Sad. Face.
when i logged in yesterday evening, there were 7 players in battleroom playing/starting game.
Might not be a game every day but often enough and spring was always about 50% idling 50% playing.
pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by pintle »

knorke wrote:
Edit: Fyi I just logged into SL, and for literally the first time since 2005, or whenever the channel was founded, (to my knowledge) #XTA is empty. Sad. Face.
when i logged in yesterday evening, there were 7 players in battleroom playing/starting game.
Might not be a game every day but often enough and spring was always about 50% idling 50% playing.
I didn't mean to imply nobody played at all (I actually played some games yesterday) just that was the first time I ever saw the channel empty.
pintle
Posts: 1762
Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by pintle »

knorke wrote:
Edit: Fyi I just logged into SL, and for literally the first time since 2005, or whenever the channel was founded, (to my knowledge) #XTA is empty. Sad. Face.
when i logged in yesterday evening, there were 7 players in battleroom playing/starting game.
Might not be a game every day but often enough and spring was always about 50% idling 50% playing.
I didn't mean to imply nobody played at all (I actually played some games yesterday) just that was the first time I ever saw the channel empty.
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

Com jerking off when idle was great....
babbles
Posts: 564
Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 02:30

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by babbles »

Rumpelstiltskin wrote:Com jerking off when idle was great....
not sure if sarcasm
User avatar
Johannes
Posts: 1265
Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 15:49

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by Johannes »

knorke wrote:But one has to see that "gratifying curiosity/ego" is the only payment you get for working on spring. If people volunteer for that imo they have some right to make a silly animation for commander or adjust balance a bit.
Well I see it as a big problem with many Spring games, that ability and willingness to fix bugs and such grants you the power to do these things. When the ability to do this does not really correlate with skill to balance a game well...

Though yes, mostly I think balance should be touched as little as possible. Or another option, go and noticeably redesign all the things you want at once with a clear vision. But this middle ground of erratically changing one thing at a time, it really seems kinda pointless or even harmful.
User avatar
Jools
XTA Developer
Posts: 2813
Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by Jools »

Wow, what a bunch of comments to xta forum.

Well, obviously everyone is a bit subjective (you really cannot be objective, it depends on what newspapers you read etc), and therefore people will favourise the units they like. I like mines ofc and started using them very early. Now everyone uses them so they do hinder an offensive player and are very effective if used well, as they are IRL. My idea would still be to limit them some other way than by cloak cost, maybe having a limited capacity in minelayer, if that's doable.

Other than that, I would like the direction of the modding to go more towards balancing two factions rather than balancing on a unit per unit basis. Arm should be the fast and agile one and core the strong one. Why have we lost that? And how was the original neutron working? Was it core neutron? It only paralysed arm units? Why was that taken away? IIRC it never actually worked in OTA.

I haven't done any balancing for the mod, just visual stuff and lua. Because whoever does the balancing will also face criticism. It's like making a seat map for people at a big party: you will get enemies no matter what you do :)
User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10344
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by PicassoCT »

cheap minetriggering units come to mind. POWs we are going for a walk!
User avatar
Rumpelstiltskin
Posts: 292
Joined: 26 Jun 2012, 18:52

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by Rumpelstiltskin »

making core heavy while arm fast will ruin and game.
On small maps heavier units are better while on bigger maps faster units are better.
If one race is generally faster it wil dominate on bigger maps while the heavier race on smaller ones.
User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10344
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Dear mod/game developer...

Post by PicassoCT »

How about a unit that can slowly convert other units (also mines) and thus make a invisible way through the field?

Sorry, i know my game on first look doesent have mines, but well the journeys have traps, and those are basically mines, i solved that problem by having cheap units which can be sacrificed to blow a way. If this becomes stApp(standard Approch), there is the way to set the Mines to not-fire, and detonate manually, which leaves only one option..to cook them - basically get a unit specialised on low, constant area damage (gamagardener) and then slowly boil them away. Against these air raids and sting attacks work... and so on and so forth.. Sollutions are not only found in just turning a value up and down, thats all i want to express.

Also mines have hidden costs as the click, coordination to success ratio is leaning towards the advanced players.

Tl,DR; Mines are expensive for noobs, Difussing them doesent have to happen via the Damage/BuildCost Aspect
Post Reply

Return to “XTA”