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BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 02:29
by Duck
Recently I had chance to spectate game where player ImHere(flopflop i think) used nuke exploit. Dunno how it works exactly, but he was nuking mid air and avoiding full nuke range. https://replays.springrts.com/replay/d9 ... 62d488dd3/
Problem here is that BA dev himself made that nuke exploit widget and sharing with other players who abuse it while playing BA9. Also one of them stated that they will abuse it only in BA9. So lately some players like Doo, flopflop, Shox doing a lot of nuke rushes in BA9 games and nuking more than they should. They are avoiding bans or even game kicks, nobody talks about it and admins just ignores it, because they are part of BA dev team.

And this is just a tip of the iceberg. Everyone knows that BA community is splitting and BA dev team getting a lot of criticism and feels like they ignore it most of the time. Most of the negative opinions are ignored by calling players "just dickheads who cares" or using "not constructive criticism" excuse. Most of the feedbacks instantly dismissed.
Other problem is that BA devs are demoting BA9 by saying negative things about it, disabling promote function in BA9 hosts, getting in fights with players who stands behind BA9 balance and even banning them for that.
All this and many other things (hope others gonna mention too) are hurting and making even more hate towards BA devs and BA10.
I know that community itself isn't family friendly place and did a lot of harm to BA, but devs not shining too. So here i want to discuss mostly about dev team and BA10



What others think about all this? What do you think about BA devs and BA10? Maybe BA team will hear us if we will try to be louder?


Your fellow BA player who's often ignored by devs.

Re: BA dev team attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 08:11
by Silentwings
Regarding exploits:
Problem here is that BA dev himself made that nuke exploit widget and sharing with other players who abuse it while playing BA9. Also one of them stated that they will abuse it only in BA9. So lately some players like Doo, flopflop, Shox ...
[CoF]ImHere looks to be Doo - who did discover the exploit - so your suggestion that the exploit was shared and then used by others may not be correct. Those potentially involved here have been warned explicitly (by me) in private, and any future use of this exploit will not be tolerated.

More generally: exploits can be fun, and making a little use of one when it is discovered is OK, as long as there is no malice involved. However, use of exploits to disrupt and break games is not OK - and especially not from developers.

In case you are not aware: When a reaction is wanted from Springs moderators, reports should be sent, via private messages, with evidence in the form of logfiles/replays, to Springs moderators. (Please do so if wanted, with evidence for your claim of regular use / multiple users). Forum threads are for discussions, which don't require a heavy burden of proving something when you say it - consequently we will never treat them as a request for a reaction from moderators, we may not always read them, and we will generally lock threads made to request moderator reactions.

Re: BA dev team attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 09:44
by Duck
I understand that Silenwing, but like I said I want to discuss about BA devs and BA10 overall. They don't like idea to talk on forums and most of opinions they get on discord just disappear in chat room.

So I want to copy/paste one recent opinion by another player from discord.
vbsYesterday at 12:56 AM
i also feel there is a need to let the community give feedback on the general route the BA devs decided to take. lots of players are unhappy with it and a lots of players left us. i am unhappy with it also. as suggested in this channel i talked to triton several times in pm. it didn't work out very well.
i personally think that BA devs do not "own" BA and they don't have the right to do with it whatever they think is appropriate. the community owns BA and they love it as it is/was (!!!) <- understand that part, it's important. BA dev's job is to maintain it. if you think BA9 is shit (as triton does) and you want to change it fundamentally then your way to go is to fork it and change it according to your personal vision. just make your own game. taking the current game from the community and changing it against the will of (large parts of) the community is super disrespectful and ... sorry to say, it's an asshole move. this is my opinion.
also i feel lots of community feedback has been ignored in the past months/years. the current situation is the result of this. i cant remember a BA release ever that had such a bad acceptance in the community as BA10 had.
vbsYesterday at 1:40 AM
Pretty much every feedback I gave was instantly dismissed. One important point in my opinion that I made 100 times is that a chat room is not an appropriate tool to manage and discuss an open source project. I dont know a single project based on a Chat room.
Ofc the forum idea was instantly dismissed also

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 12:57
by triton
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
They are avoiding bans or even game kicks, nobody talks about it and admins just ignores it, because they are part of BA dev team.
That is not true, the only time I saw this hack used in a public game, it was used in a BA10 game, server was full, it was a 8VS8 dsd, and I temporary kick-banned shox and doo for using it, after publicly denounce them in chat.
We had a big talk about it in private, I said I was against using it, I said it was stupid, I asked them to not use it in BA9 or BA10. Doo fixed this exploit in BA10 after that, but I thought he would just stop using it in BA9.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 13:25
by Shoxter
Exploits are fun to use for a while until they are fixed, always have been. But the problem is that with this split, BA9/engine 103 is outdated and unmaintained so can't be patched. BA10 fixed the exploit the same day it was discovered. Normally these exploits would exist for months until an engine dev fixed them as they were engine problems. Exploits back in the day were used by everyone after a while and were pretty much part of the game until it got fixed. There wasnt even much crying, just people having fun. Most of you newfags around here don't even remember/know about all the old fun exploits like;

User warned for this language. --FLOZi

off map bombing allowing your bombers to come in behind enemy fighter patrols
emping your own units and loading into a trans allowing them to shoot from it
make flagships in craters restoring ground and pushing them along
targetting the skybox for massive range increased distance
fps unit massive range extensions
PYB script that would load enemy commanders even if walking
reclaiming t3 labs for metal but leaving the nanoframe of the unit youre making
I'm sure there are many I've forgotten but those ones I remember the most

I guess the reason people cry nowadays is thanks to TS. This game was so much better before it had a (massively flawed) rating system. Now we have 1 exploited game and people are crying "OMG MUH POINTS!" Sorry we made a tiny dent in your artifical 50% winrate.

"Problem here is that BA dev himself made that nuke exploit widget" Why is it a problem who made it? an exploit is an exploit and the engine/mod needs patching to fix it. Doo is former BA dev, so what? Seems like you're grapsing at straws here just for more fuel for the BA9 players vs BA10 devs war which is completely irrelevant to the exploit.

Also my view on the BA9 vs BA10/devs issue (a comment I made to triton on discord):

10.16 being good is irrelevant at this point, further down the line we can aim to reimplement those changes for sure. but for now its about winning back comunity trust. i wasnt around when all this shit went down, but it seems like 10 got rejected at some point and youve carried on working on it regardless without a consistent playerbase, picking up a few games here and there when 946 host was empty and calling it a success :\ im not trying to be a dick here, its just purely a player/non dev opinion. nobody is REALLY playing ba10 seriously aside from you guys, so when players join they are totally lost in the sea of changes that keep coming out. imo you should have stopped pushing these changes when there was a problem/split being established. now its gone so far with so much time and work involved you dont want to back down, the players have a sour taste and dont want to back down, so here we are. devs devving a game for almost nobody, taking abuse from players all the time until they leave (doo, flow etc) 1 side has to give. in this case im sorry to say it should be the devs, youve done amazing work but made some mistakes in the way youve gone about trying to push it. especially the banning/policing of what people can and cant play. thats not the spirit of open source or spring at all. you shouldnt need to ban other engines or w/e for people to play latest, this has never happened before, as i keep saying you need to address WHY. its easy to blame "4 assholes" but its more than that. 4 guys cannot influence 30+ regulars THAT much unless we have the most beta community ever. plus there are many other players that are generally quiet that say bad stuff about ba10, generally its wrong/misinformation to be fair but they obviously have issues with it

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 17:21
by Ares
Maintainer status power is being used as a free ticket to screw up BA. No one is against updating to new engine, only against the terrible changes which are being forced in. Negative feedback on forum since 2016 where forboding angel made his first commit was ignored and devs instead decided to migrate to Discord where no one disagrees with them lol.

https://github.com/Balanced-Annihilatio ... 1d3dfc32b1

Course was never changed, actually accelerated in the opposite direction until dev team became an amorphous, all powerful blob, unleashing random unaccountable balance changes thinly disguised under the name of NEW IMPROVED UPDATED TEST version 102939379379739847343. A "balance for player" system was also adopted where balance changes would be made in exchange for your presence on the BA 10 server in an artificial attempt to win the popularity contest.

Maintainers use "ungrateful" players argument to offload blame and get sympathy from engine devs, earning themselves Wrenches and Mod powers to botflag other versions. People don't want BA 10 disguised as BA 9.46 apart from BA 10 people clinging onto power. Way too much changed under the hood in BA 10. People only ever wanted 9.46 on new engine from the start, but maintainers never gave that option. Would rather invest their time finding exploits for competing versions and building unsynced gadgets to target any player who disagrees.

I also notice that the messages on discord from ba 10 players about only using the exploit in BA 9 have been tactically deleted, so maybe there is hope they can work out how to delete BA 10 too :lol:

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 18:55
by PtaQ
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
Also one of them stated that they will abuse it only in BA9.
Who? Where? How is that even relevant since it can only be abused in BA9?
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
So lately some players like Doo, flopflop, Shox doing a lot of nuke rushes in BA9 games and nuking more than they should.
Is that just your feeling, or you have got some material evidence at hand?
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
They are avoiding bans or even game kicks, nobody talks about it and admins just ignores it, because they are part of BA dev team.
Which one of the admins actually was there and ignored the behavior/allowed for ban dodging?
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
Everyone knows that BA community is splitting and BA dev team getting a lot of criticism and feels like they ignore it most of the time. Most of the negative opinions are ignored by calling players "just dickheads who care" or using "not constructive criticism" excuse. Most of the feedbacks instantly dismissed.
There is a huge bias driving that notion in my opinion. There was a lot of constructive criticism from guys who like BA9 balance more and also those who like certain aspects of it more. A huge chunk of it was taken into consideration and lots of things got reverted/tweaked or made closer to BA9 state to achieve a compromise between both versions. I myself blocked tons of bit too revolutionary ideas that were put forward (Doo can tell :D). The thing is that generally, ppl don't care/ memorize much when their feedback gets attention but oh god they do when it gets rejected. Hence the bias arises. On top of that, there honestly was tons of unconstructive criticism and I don't believe anyone could deny it. Horrible insults, misinformation, comments about the version from a year ago, etc. You got to give (some) credit to devs who make effort to filter out relevant comments from this shitstorm. It is a masochistic chore and they were doing it for free ;p

As Ive wrote on Discord, so far vbs was the only person that consistently used well-reasoned arguments against the whole "institution" of BA10 during the last couple of months. He also uniquely puts the effort not to insult anyone in the process. I'm sorry to hear that he felt ignored. At least I have always responded to his concerns and tried to reason with him when I was around. He is right that Discord is not the best tool for project development but forums (at least spring forums) have proven again and again in the last 2 year that it is not a good tool either. At least there are people who care about the discussion in Discord and this forum is just occasionally visited by a handful of ppl. On top of that, the discussion here is often dissolved by opinions of ppl who have nothing to do with BA and personal quarrels. We have proposed other means of communication and organization like a separate forum on BA website or using Trello but these ideas haven't received much positive feedback either. I hope we can someday just chill out a bit and think together how to solve this.
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
Other problem is that BA devs are demoting BA9 by saying negative things about it,
So it is ok to say negative things about BA10 but when you do the same with BA9 its a nono?
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
disabling promote function in BA9 hosts
BA devs don't run/have any power over BA9 hosts, also afaik few BA10 hosts have !promote disabled as well I just don't get how is that relevant. I don't exactly know why these restrictions were introduced. Perhaps host owners may elaborate.
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
Your fellow BA player who's often ignored by devs.
You came to Discord claiming abusive admining by Triton without presenting any evidence, as you do in this forum post. When asked to present it, you have ignored it. How do you want anyone to take you seriously? ;/ Don't learn from Ares.
I also notice that the messages on discord from ba 10 players about only using the exploit in BA 9 have been tactically deleted, so maybe there is hope they can work out how to delete BA 10 too :lol:
As you can see, you can claim anything about anyone, you just have to make sure to add that they burned down the evidence! Ares: Can you tell who said that and when? I will try to recover it with my logger, cuz I'm just curious.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 28 Nov 2018, 23:39
by Alice
Duck wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 02:29
Recently I had chance to spectate game where player ImHere(flopflop i think) used nuke exploit. Dunno how it works exactly, but he was nuking mid air and avoiding full nuke range. https://replays.springrts.com/replay/d9 ... 62d488dd3/
Problem here is that BA dev himself made that nuke exploit widget and sharing with other players who abuse it while playing BA9. Also one of them stated that they will abuse it only in BA9. So lately some players like Doo, flopflop, Shox doing a lot of nuke rushes in BA9 games and nuking more than they should. They are avoiding bans or even game kicks, nobody talks about it and admins just ignores it, because they are part of BA dev team.
I was in his team and I think it was Doo. He said it himself in chat at the beginning of the game if I'm not mistaken. I reviewed the game, saw him using the exploit and tried to ban him. But apparently I'm no admin anymore. It didn't work. Was so looking forward to execute my first ban.

I don't think any admin is ignoring the cheating. But often there is no admin online, no? And as far as I know Doo is no longer part of the dev team. Offtopic: After reviewing that game I think I did OP job defending south front. A bit proud of myself.

I do not care much about the balance changes of BA10 and I mostly ignore the discussions between BA9 players and devs because it's no fun to read. As a neutral player I kindly ask everyone to be as respectful and constructive as you can be. You might not agree with what the others say or do, but please remember that everyone is contributing time and work (playing and/or developing) in this game because they love it. Please try to work together to create a game that we all can enjoy.

My impression of "BA9 players vs Devs" is this:

BA9 players dislike the changes that were made in BA10 and have the feeling that their criticism is not taken seriously by the devs. Of course this is very upsetting and not the way you should treat your community, since you are the heart of BA. There would be no 8v8 DSD without players and devs should make a game that is appealing to it's community.

Devs are putting a lot of work and effort into making BA10 better. They use their spare time to make a free mod for everyone to play without getting payed for it (as far as I know?) and they tweak the balance the way they think it's best. Not because they like to annoy you, but because they think it will make the game better. And after all the work they put in they get flamed by people just because they don't like the changes.

I'm not taking anyone's side. I'm just saying this: You have gathered here because you love BA. Fighting will not help keeping BA alive, let alone making it grow bigger. Devs please try to listen to the community. You need them and they have helped you to make this game enjoyable. Community please don't be too harsh on the devs. They do what they think is the best for the game. The devs are your friends.

Please do not just think about the next version of BA, but think about the way BA might evolve to in the next years.
If you guys keep fighting BA will probably be dead soon.

Please be nice.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 00:29
by [Fx]Doo
Ares wrote:
28 Nov 2018, 17:21
and building unsynced gadgets to target any player who disagrees.
=> This might sound shocking, but you are not "any player who disagrees". That gadget (which you always bring back as it is one of your fav arguments against devs) was aimed at YOU PARTICULARILY.
Don't lump all the people that have valid reasons to dislike BA 10 with yourself. You are a troll and you do not deserve any of the attention that is given to you.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 13:19
by Ares
[Fx]Doo wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 00:29
You are a troll
You don't do much to dispel players' complaint that your response to negative feedback is ignoring and calling them trolls.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 14:41
by [Fx]Doo
Ares wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 13:19
[...]players' complaint [...] calling them trolls
Nope, again, you're the sole target of that message.
[Fx]Doo wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 00:29
You are a troll
YOU are A troll.
Singular.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 15:29
by Ares
[Fx]Doo wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 00:29
YOU are A troll.
Thanks for taking a break from building exploits to call me a troll, now please read first post and topic title.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 15:52
by Forboding Angel
Ares is the new knorke (they may be the same actually... The writing style and random unrelated insults is eerily similar). Welcome to the knorke hate list, Doo. We have coffee and cookies.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 19:49
by [Fx]Doo
I'm just gonna make this clear once.
No, i haven't trolled a 9.46 game with a "nuke exploit". Yes, lately, i felt like using nukes more often, for an unrelated reason. I was interested in finding the best course of action when nuking enemy team.

Yes, i discovered that hax. Yes, i had a widget for that hax, for the sole reason that i was developping a widget that would (removed).
I haven't tried to find exploits to "ruin BA 9".
I happen to have found the fix, and shared both the exploit AND the fix, to BA devs (via pull request:https://github.com/Balanced-Annihilatio ... n/pull/128) and later on to TA (via priv msg to Silver).
Now, as you are aware, BA 9 is NOT MAINTAINED. When an exploit is found on BA10, it is likely to affect BA 9 aswell.
As a player, i am under no obligation to report cheaters. And I don't think not reporting someone who is cheating is a valid reason for blaming me.

Now for the little coward spending his lonely time on the BA discord with different borderline offensive names, you asked to take the discussion here. Here I am, show yourself.

Edit:
Doo shares exploits to ruin BA9Aujourd'hui à 19:15<
anyone knows some more exploits that work in 9?(modifié)
I have some unused highranked accounts around if you need..
here is one. Chris Taylor: "Thanks for keeping the suppression down on BA for that last decade. I always hated to see my work stolen. Now that BA10 added the TA soundtrack it is okay for me. greets Chris"(modifié)
oh why did you delete your chat floppy?
I do !


User was warned for posting hacks - removed. Felony 8. (Silentwings)


Yup, BA 9.46 is outdated.
It is now your choice to see how you will use those exploits. Will you turn your own game into a cheater paradise, and ruin it on your own ? Or will you just avoid using these and play fair games ?
It is your call, not mine to make.

Also,
Now that BA10 added the TA soundtrack it is okay for me
Nope, afaik you have to dl that soundtrack from a different source.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 29 Nov 2018, 23:19
by Duck
PTA again going in fight BA9 vs BA10, community vs BA dev's team, making sides when we all are the same game players. Asking a lot of answers that would take a lot of information that will cost time to find in logs and can't accept negative opinion because of that. This type of behaviour is why community feels left outside. I don't want to waste hours of time checking replays and logs to prove my claims, so you can ignore my opinion as always.
So it is ok to say negative things about BA10 but when you do the same with BA9 its a nono?
This is wrong in so many ways... 1. Fighting fire with fire. 2. If players says bad things about BA10 maybe something is wrong with it??? 3. Why devs thrashing game they trying to develop? What good you will get from it?
o far vbs was the only person that consistently used well-reasoned arguments against the whole "institution" of BA10 during the last couple of months
False, I gave my opinion and reasonable arguments too and what I saw on discord and lobby that other players did too. Also that's the problem of balance talks on chats, all info vanishes in chat logs and no dedicated topics.
Ares is the new knorke (they may be the same actually... The writing style and random unrelated insults is eerily similar). Welcome to the knorke hate list, Doo. We have coffee and cookies.
Random unrelated insult too from person who did some harm to BA too, not related with a topic.

Split Forboding Angel's reply to viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38586 (Silentwings)



Overall my goal was just to get more opinions about BA10 when I posted this, not some massive fights again, we got discord for it. Also feel like discord is bad place to discuss it, community isn't rly happy about the balance and maybe devs gonna make some changes once community gets louder. BA10 won't go anywhere when you have only few players testing it and playing, it needs changes.

Generally: Nuke exploit was just latest example and one of the reasons triggered me to post this but, not relevant so much.
I don't hate BA10, I just like BA9 more, i'm not bias at all.
And last word... We all here talking and playing BA only because we like it or love it, this war going for 2 years already and just taking BA to concentration camp. Need to workout this problem and merge community again.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 30 Nov 2018, 09:36
by Silentwings
I've split further discussion/arguments over Forboding Angel's commits to BA to viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38586.


I think it would be more productive to have discussion between players and the devs who are actually responsible for the vast majority of BA10s features - and afaics Forboding Angel doesn't fall into this category.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 01 Dec 2018, 13:35
by PtaQ
Duck wrote:
29 Nov 2018, 23:19
PTA again going in fight BA9 vs BA10, community vs BA dev's team, making sides when we all are the same game players. Asking a lot of answers that would take a lot of information that will cost time to find in logs and can't accept negative opinion because of that. This type of behaviour is why community feels left outside. I don't want to waste hours of time checking replays and logs to prove my claims, so you can ignore my opinion as always.
There is a difference between an opinion and an accusation. One of them is needs evidence. I will let you figure out which one.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 06 Dec 2018, 17:44
by Jools
It's 2018 and we can't manage to have a forum discussion without intervention from you know who. It's our own Godwin's law.

Re: BA dev team's attitude towards community, BA10 and nuke exploit

Posted: 09 Dec 2018, 00:53
by PicassoCT
Jools, you know the rules, those who bet money - no matter what party, do not interfere with the drama. I call the bets off now.