Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Competetive Balanced Annihilation

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Gota
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Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Gota »

disclaimer:
*In this post I will try to explain what i think of the current BA and How i think it could be changed to become a more competitive mod which will focus on small games only(1v1,2v2).
*I know I used to Dev SA but i still ask you to try and examine what i write about from an objective point of view, as much as possible...


Competitive Balanced Annihilation
Balanced Annihilation, Throughout the years, has been molded and changed and got reconfigured in all sorts of ways based on some understandings of how it should be played and by who...

My main point:
ATM, in Spring, hosts of gaming rooms have a lot of choices, one of them is the amount of maximum players allowed into the game.
Balanced annihilation in its current form tries to satisfy, balance wise, both 1v1 games and 8v8+ games.
I think its impossible for BA to have optimal balance for all occasions;all types of maps and player quantities, therefor I think that it would be a good idea to create a version of BA that is as close to the current one as as possible but is tailor made for small, more competitive games.

Secondary Point:
First of all let us agree that the average BA 1v1 or 2v2 game has time restrictions, it cant be 5 hours but it also cant be 5 minutes.
Let us say that an average 1v1 BA game ATM, takes about 30 minutes.
Let's also say that a a mod who's balance is focused around 1v1 and 2v2 games would need all of its units to be usable and optimal at least some portion of the time on some portion of the played maps.

I think that Balanced annihilation in it's current form might be a bit bloated for the above restrictions.
We might not have really felt it since BA never fully integrated higher tier gameplay into smaller, more open games.
If we were to allow players to more easily make T2 units in 1v1 games i think we might feel that there are just too many unit types to allow each one its time in battle.
In any case, it is obvious some changes must be done so players are not restricted to only using a tiny portion of the mod's arsenal in 95% of 1v1 games.

I was wondering if anyone who enjoys playing 1v1 or 2v2s the most would be interested in discussing the creation of a Balanced annihilation version that would incorporate higher tier units successfuly into the mainstream gameplay.
We are talking about a conservative version that would try to stay as true to BA as possible while focusing it's balance around 1v1,2v2 gameplay and allowing players to use the full arsenal of units that would be available in the mod.
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Beherith
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Beherith »

I like the acronym, CBA.
Feel free to fork, check TFC's stance on naming policy, as that still applies.
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Gota
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Gota »

I might but for anything to happen the opinion and input of 1v1 players is required.
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Jazcash
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Jazcash »

I agree with your point that it's almost impossible to balance a game for both 1v1 and 8v8+ perfectly. However, I do think that BA is a lot better at satisfying both those types of games better than a lot of other games currently are.

Another point is that in games like 8v8 DSD, you tend to have a few players teching, and a few players pushing T1 from the game start. These are two very different styles of gameplay, and it's very hard to please both when they're in the same game.

You end up with linear gameplay: If the techer survives 14 minutes than right side wins, if the pusher gets to the techer before that then left side wins. I know that's not always the case but that's generally how it tends to role.

In any case, something that does need to get sorted is BA's goal. BA used to be designed for 1v1 gameplay, and although that may not have been the best route to go, that aim gave it direction which it otherwise wouldn't have. If you want to progress, any direction is better than no direction.

At the moment, I feel as if BA is just being balanced in relation to events that have happened in a few games. And I know that some of you say that you don't balance BA around 8v8 DSD, it's inevitable that it has an influence on balance somewhere, directly or indirectly. It's impossible for it not to when it's where the majority of BA games occur.

I think BA should set out some clear objectives and guidelines as to where it wants to go, and what it wants to be. Otherwise you're going to end up shifting back and forth between balance changes trying to please different types of games, and different types of players. BA should not be trying to feed everybody here.
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Gota
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Gota »

I think you might be in the wrong thread.
BA was never designed for 1v1 since in all of its incarnations T2 was never part of the equation when it came down to 1v1 not to mention T3...

BA was a slightly smaller version of AA in terms of arsenal and AA was also never about balancing for a competitive 1v1 game but just taking TA, adding more units from all sorts of unit packs and playing some games...

I do not beleive that the current BA dev team is balancing and will balance BA for 1v1 games specifically, which is fine, but I would like to have a variant that caters to 1v1 games specifically, making no concessions.

I want to hear how people think T2 should be integrated into 1v1 games and what other changes they think might be good for a 1v1 oriented BA variant.
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Jazcash
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Jazcash »

Gota wrote: BA was never designed for 1v1
Yes it was. A lot of balance changes revolved around a lot of 1v1s between old BA players like Det, Saktoth and that lot. It was just never too strenuously balanced for 1v1 for it to make team games bad though, so I guess it never really showed that it was a 1v1 mod on first glance.

Most 1v1 games last around 20 minutes, not 30 tbh. You'll notice that T1 in BA is very finely tuned and is the best part of BA if you ask me. Once it gets past the T1 stage in BA games I tend to lose interest. Although that shouldn't be the case, that's what you get when so many balance changes were based upon the 1v1 games that I talked about.
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Cheesecan
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Cheesecan »

Doubt you need to worry about 1v1 community because it doesn't exist.
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Jazcash
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Jazcash »

Cheesecan wrote:Doubt you need to worry about 1v1 community because it doesn't exist.
Exactly. It used to, but as it no longer does, BA needs to get its objectives straight.
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Nixa
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Nixa »

It's not the mods fault for lack of a 1v1 competitive community.

Look on these forums - most of the remaining people here are these 1v1'rs (excluding developers), and the amount of hostility/trolling/abuse (not to mention egos) in general makes for a very unappealing group for anyone to want to be part of.
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Wombat
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Wombat »

1v1 players are the problem.
few months of baw baw for ladder, and when it was online... well, nobody wanted to use it coz someone could see ur low rank and e-peen could shrink.
lot of baw baw for tournaments - temporary enthusiasm.
lot of baw baw about 1v1ba suckin balls, so group of ppl decided to make 'pro annihilation'. failed horribly (sounds familiar), boobs as load screen didnt help.

how about u realise 1v1s are not fun for everyone. actually 1v1s are fun for the same group of ppl since couple of years. stop the drama, seriously, go play xta for example.

also im wondering what forum got to do with 1v1s :lol:
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Cheesecan
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Cheesecan »

Wombat wrote: lot of baw baw for tournaments - temporary enthusiasm.
Tournaments are not held because nobody wants to organize them. The last few tournies had a good number of players.

Btw I don't know if you always have to be the party pooper, or if you choose on a case by case basis, but you're almost always writing something very negative on these forums.
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Pxtl
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Pxtl »

Need matchmaking, same problem as guys who want to play 3v3 instead of 8v8.
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Wombat
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Wombat »

very negative
u ppl dont help. sorry but these are facts ;__;
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Gota
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Gota »

There is no drama...
Im not blaming BA for lack of 1v1 games...
BA plays well in big team games in the sense that almost all the units in the arsenal are viable for usage...
In 1v1 games its not like that since you play only with tier 1 in most games...
This is all fine, im not saying BA should change cause it has its balance very well executed for team games.
I want a version that's balance revolves strictly around the 1v1 experience.

Pro annihilation was an attempt for a rebalance of existing units thats not what i think is required for BA to become strictly 1v1 oriented...

All i was doing is wondering if maybe people that still play 1v1 games would be interested in at least trying a version of BA that incorporates higher tier units into the mainstream play...
And if some do I'd like to hear their opinions about how they think BA needs to be altered to allow for this.
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Wombat
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Wombat »

well ok. then on topic.

main issue with t2 in 1v1s is high energy cost. t1 is manly all about wind/adv solars. problem with doing t2 is the pause, beginning with starting t2 lab and finishing it ( + usually making t2 con/fus). techer usually gets owned pretty badly during that time. i dont include metal here, u gotta be idiot to make t2 lab with 5 mexes and lack of wrecks. m is not any problem anyway, i assume players fight, expand and suck wrecks.

so, reducing e cost of t2 unts is definitely a need in my opinion (increasing geo efficiency is also good idea, since its pretty expensive/big bt what makes it good target)

adding all t2 labs to every con is also good idea i think.
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triton
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by triton »

Pxtl wrote:Need matchmaking
For those who knows, League of legend system to have games using matchmaking is one of the best I know.

You can make custom games, invite friends to play with you and play random ennemies according your rank and experience.

Wombat said we didnt use ladder, but ladder was never finished and integrated to lobby. I wont blame devs since I never gave money, and I am only good to complain and play, but few years ago we had a working ladder, tasclient had cup icons for the top 3 players of each mods, and people were playing it quiet often.

Old ladder was working for teamgames too. We had some great clan wars during that period.

Widget not include in BA should be disable for ladder games.

I think the best way to have more T2 in small games with good players is to reduce buildtime of t2 units, energy cost and to reduce T2 lab cost.

T2 cons could cost a lot more so people would FINALLY make t2 lab for T2 units and not for T2 cons.
Good players reclaim T2 lab after they got 1 or few cons in 90% situation and it sucks.
Maybe that reclaiming units and building could give only 70%-90% metal back too.

I still think that it's very sad that dsd players totally forgot about commend, not team commend but normal commend.
Nowaday commander is used as a bomb and for its metal instead of being a great leader in attacks or a base commander who can defend and help buildings.

Commander have a lack of utility in T2 war he should be able to morph to be better at front or better at base.

I always thought that atlas had to move slower according the mass they transport, morphed commander would have huge mass ofc.
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Pxtl
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Pxtl »

Alternately, you could nerf the T2 buildings - particularly the econ ones. This would reduce the DSD fusionmohofusionmohofusion spam, and wouldn't hurt the competitive game at all. Then T2 cons could still be normal units.

But that would be kind of drastic... but fixing the jump-to-T2 is always going to be drastic.
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Wombat
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Wombat »

ladder was never finished and integrated to lobby
it was working, working very good, dunno what more did u want... cups? -__-
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Lord_Hector
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Lord_Hector »

lol wombat do u even remember ladder, it was the biggest fail ever, it did not work at all

and I don't know what you're trying to say about tournaments because everyone loves them, maybe the bawing is for moar

the problem with lack of 1v1/3v3 as we all know is 8v8 dsd. It absorbs all new players and then what with the fact that there is no other kind of games going on they have no choice but to play it over and over again till their eyeballs melt

"u only need 2 players for 1v1!" u might be thinking... i will tell u now, the other player is always some pro, die hard 1v1er desperate for 1v1s who automatically joins and rapes any noobs that might like to 1v1 (yes im looking at you 8D)
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Wombat
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Re: Competetive Balanced Annihilation

Post by Wombat »

players pm'd autohost that they want ladder game.

thats all. what else u want ? seriously... if u want another ladder go to the shop.
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