DSD or big games discussion

DSD or big games discussion

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FabriceFABS
Posts: 345
Joined: 28 Jul 2010, 16:20

DSD or big games discussion

Post by FabriceFABS »

Hi Senna, (split from viewtopic.php?f=44&t=33187#p566768 - Silentwings)

Well, welcome back.
Keep playing DSD ? Not exatly >> Keep joining 8v8 instead with DSD map or not.
More games = more spec (possibilities), right ?

When one day we'll -finally- :
  • Limit the maximum number of players in a game (should be really < 8v8),
  • Limit the maximum number of spectators (<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< 128),
  • And finally when joining a running game won't be possible,
Spring will go much much better, like some others RTS games ?

What's the goal of autohosts owner to allow up to 128 specs ? For popularity like TERA hosts ?
Or for the new battle type of who of the 30 specs will be the new 15th & 16th player to fill the game after an average hope of 40 min waiting time ?

Image
This picture, it was yesterday or before yesterday and will be the same every day.
Is Spring (BA) must be summarized in only a single game?

For the rest nothing wrong Bluestone and Jamerian did it.
Last edited by FabriceFABS on 27 Feb 2015, 21:37, edited 1 time in total.
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jamerlan
Balanced Annihilation Developer
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Joined: 20 Oct 2009, 13:04

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by jamerlan »

lol FabriceFABS nice joke!

I like spectating and reading what other specs talking etc (especially from 15+ minutes). I like playing 8v8 games. So.. you propose to destroy everything I like. I am wondering: why? And I can find only one possible reason - nobody playing on your hosts :-D *joking*

Don't think how to restrict people! Think how to attract more! And how to make them happy!

No spec limits and 8v8 games makes me happy for example
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FabriceFABS
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by FabriceFABS »

jamerlan wrote:lol FabriceFABS nice joke!
What joke ?
jamerlan wrote:I like spectating and reading what other specs talking etc (especially from 15+ minutes).
I like flowers.
jamerlan wrote:I like playing 8v8 games. So.. you propose to destroy everything I like.
I, I, I... Are you center of the world or ?
Sometimes, not to be selfish to a community, to others, what about seeing a little further than your nose and try new things... ? Discus with args instead of "It's shit, I like, I don't like"...
I propose more small games, instead of 1 unique BA game (in general).
jamerlan wrote:I am wondering: why? And I can find only one possible reason - nobody playing on your hosts :-D *joking*
Don't say your're joking, assume your sayings.
Are you sure about this ?
The goal is not to come to me, is : How to make more games & How to permit newbies wanting to stay ?
Did you understand this time ?
Well TBH, I don't mind no one play on my hosts but It's you that say this, don't be blind and check out when one 40~45 running game on your host, how many are sent on SpringFiles at the same time.
I'm glad to say you that I will be alive even if no one come ! My life will continue after.
It's you that is so afraid if there are some limitation to save the community.
jamerlan wrote:Don't think how to restrict people! Think how to attract more! And how to make them happy!
This is a temporary measure suggestion, I do not ask players to come to me, I simply ask to fix reasonable limits.
You took it like a restriction because you are afraid to loose your big unique game.
I don't want to attract more, I (and not only 1) want more // (means PARALLEL) games.
jamerlan wrote:No spec limits and 8v8 games makes me happy for example
Yes, but with this principe, why do you force others players to go (with the rule «people attract people») in this unique insane game ?
Yes, I'm also in right to say it's an insane (soulless sense) game.
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zalaad
Posts: 7
Joined: 24 Feb 2015, 23:47

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by zalaad »

Hi,

As a very old player (I played TA Spring), I totally agree with Fabrice that BA is dying because of 8v8.

But I understand that some of us like 8v8 games and want to be able to continue to play them.

So I'd like to propose a method to multiply the number of parties without forbidding 8v8 games.

We could limit the number of players of ANY game to the double of the bigger current playing game.

So if a 1v1 is currently running, 2v2 games are allowed
....... 2v2 4v4
...... 4v4 8v8 are allowed.

This could allow small games all the time, and 8v8 nearly all the time.

And by making easier small parties, that would make more players join, and more players able to populate 8v8 games after...

What do you think about that ?
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8611
XTA Developer
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Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by 8611 »

  • The development of the game and running the autohosts are done by different people:
    There is no way for "BA" to force or ban a certain style of hosts. Technically it could be done but nobody "has the right" to enforce it.
  • Autohosts are not the only way to limit team sizes: The game could for example put some players into specmode as soon as match starts. But there is nothing stopping anyone to simply make a BA-variante with any limits removed, so that approach fails too.
  • A limit in the engine would be a slightly bigger obstacle to remove but is not going to happen because of game/engine seperation and this is a game problem.
I find "many people like it" is difficult to apply when players can not make a conscious decision, as is the case with uncoordinated players in an online lobby.
It can not be changed anyway, so maybe might as well try to find ways to accept it.
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Silentwings
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Silentwings »

Actually, BA autohosts are co-ordinated...

In the past BAs 8v8 hosts had spectator limits. They were originally removed as an experiment - the result was the number of players remained absolutely unchanged and the number of spectators greatly increased.

Of course, one might wonder if spectators were forced not to spectate that they might play elsewhere, and some might, but by looking at how many spectators try to become a player when a player leaves a full game its obvious that very many players also enjoy spectating and don't want to play all the time. One might equally argue that having many spectators creates a pool of people wanting to play, who can easily find each other and are therefore more likely to start small games. Such people might simply log off if they could not spectate, resulting in a lower number of games.

We did experiments in both directions directions in the past, to try and work out if there was a connection - as far as we could tell (and it surprised me at the time) the number of spectators permitted does not affect the number of players in either direction. So it seems that neither argument is true - or rather, if either is true then they are both true in approximately equal measure.

I am interested to see if more small games can be formed when matchmaking appears, but this is a question for the future.
"many people like it" is difficult to apply when players can not make a conscious decision
BAs 8v8 autohosts have automatic map rotation after every game, and a stiff limit on how many votes are needed to change map. Most games are on a map that was newly voted in by players - if a map is played a lot, a lot of people wanted it.
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zalaad
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Joined: 24 Feb 2015, 23:47

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by zalaad »

Before talking about technical feasibility of a process, first :

- do we all agree that there is a problem with BA lacking players ?

If yes :

- do we all agree that the possibility to play 24/7 for a new player is more important than the possibility to spec 24/7 a 8v8 game ?

If yes, the technical difficulty should not be a problem.
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Joined: 29 May 2010, 23:40

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by dansan »

I'm also not happy with the current state, but I don't think limits will help. "Offers for lazy people" can help though. My _idea_ of this is:
When matchmaking is possible, spads makes automatic or player-requested offers to the specs of a running match:

Code: Select all

s:"If you wish to move to a new 8v8 match (on the same map as current is being played) ***if enough players are found*** then vote s:!y."
Then specs could vote "s:!y" and only if >= 16 players voted "s:!y", those would be moved to another autohost.
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8611
XTA Developer
Posts: 242
Joined: 29 Dec 2014, 08:22

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by 8611 »

I did not mean players deciding on map, I meant the room size. But still:
How are BA hosts coordinated?

I think when comparing to lobby a few years ago: Yes, should be obvious that player numbers are decreasing.
To anyone in doubt: When did you last see so many full games at once: download/file.php?id=9269 ?
(that is not even max, it is just random old screenshot from somewhere on spring site.)

"More games at once" is of course better because it is means less waiting for games.
Problem is, spring players are a bit special. It is not normal to idle/afk for hours in a battleroom or chat and wait for an opportunity to play.
Average new player is unwilling to do that.
If yes, the technical difficulty should not be a problem.
The technical side was never a problem. More a matter of coordination and maybe "who dares to be responsible to do something that might turn out very unpopular and maybe kill the last playerbase, at least short-term."

Historically there has always been one main mod and once a successor appeared, all players switched over.
With apperance of zero-K that changed. Not saying it is anyone's fault but the players were now divided between two mods.
Despite large overlap it was a split and two smaller communities grow slower and struggle more than when there was one mod.
It will be interessting to see what happens with BA:R: Will all players switch over of if some stay with normal BA.
With Tech Annhilation there is now actually a third "big" mod. Playernumbers are maybe not down that much, but more spread out.


For matchmaking it would be nessecary to deal with the large team-room soaking up all players like a sponge, as was imo one main problem with any matchmaking attempts of zero-K.
Matchmaking does not work if there are 20 active players, 16 ingame in same room, 4 who "maybe" want to play but are also happy just waiting 50min for the next round.
The current playerbase has been condensed a bit to "8v8 lovers" and it has lots of momentum, hard to sell matchmaking in such enviroment.
Any change or rebuild must be slow, matchmaking is no silver bullet...

There was once a common lobby channel that, among other things, helped players to find each other.
Eventually it got abused by spam and once spam (and silly anti-spam rules that only hindered normal talk but not the actual spam) had made it useless it was removed as default-joined channel in some lobbies.
As result: no more common chat for players to find each other.
All the activity had moved into one battleroom anyway, so it was not missed much.
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dansan
Server Owner & Developer
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by dansan »

edit: oops - wrong thread
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zalaad
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Joined: 24 Feb 2015, 23:47

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by zalaad »

There are still 3v3 players, even if it's very difficult to start a game. We sometimes have to wait several hours before being able to start one. And we're still there.

Will really 8v8 players leave only because once a week they have to wait half an hour before being able to start a game ?

They have the same problem now : when a 8v8 is started, you can have to wait more than 1 hour, sometimes 2 being able to play !

Preventing the start of 8v8 when no 4v4 is running wouldn't certainly be worse than the current situation !
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Jools
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Jools »

You cant start regulating how people are supposed to enjoy playing their games. I'm sure some ba people think they can but it won't work in the long run. Start understanding that the players are the end-users and without them there is no game at all.

Without players, there is not point to have a dev tidying up some code that nobody else cares about. So the primary focus should be to keep the players happy. And if they enjoy playing 8v8 DSD, who can blame them?
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng »

I dont know whats happening, when i joined all old people saying that BA is dieing.
8v8 DSD culture is cancer that prevents retention of high level players by turning a fast paced rts into a slow, porcy eco grind that bores them stupid.

I think it will kill BA dead eventually unless cauterised, but you'll have trouble doing that because most of the remaining community.. are the ones who enjoy repetitive, slow porcy eco grinds on DSD!
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FabriceFABS
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by FabriceFABS »

Jools wrote:You cant start regulating how people are supposed to enjoy playing their games.
Well, imagine we keep 8v8 ok.
Then limit specs to human values and lock running games.
Jools wrote:I'm sure some ba people think they can but it won't work in the long run.
With supposition, no real result.
Also, it will be a long work for 1 year to checkout result with newbies too.
Jools wrote:Start understanding that the players are the end-users and without them there is no game at all.
And newbies, where do they go after this sort of game ? On others games ?
Jools wrote:Without players, there is not point to have a dev tidying up some code that nobody else cares about. So the primary focus should be to keep the players happy. And if they enjoy playing 8v8 DSD, who can blame them?
Blaming, no, just avoiding this everyday, because when you say Spring, this is not supposed to be synthetised in only 1 hudge game, and not notmal to wait 2 hours for getting a small game running.
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hokomoko
Spring Developer
Posts: 587
Joined: 02 Jun 2014, 00:46

Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by hokomoko »

Specs are like forum lurkers, forcing a lurker to post every time they read the forums sounds silly right?
That's what you guys are suggesting by limiting the number of specs.

To have more games that aren't 8v8 DSD before matchmaking arrive you can:
1) Set a time in the week for 1v1s and 2v2s.
2) Have monthly tournaments.
3) Make a chat channel #ih8dsd for all players that want to play other things. This will greatly improve player coordination (you immediately know if there's someone online that may want to play with you)
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

Don't all these specs hurt server performance?

any attempt at limiting player count via something internal to BA would result in a ba mutator or WORSE, a fork.

I think people play 8v8 DSD because of the same reason why people still play CS aztec. They feel like their skills and knowledge will not translate to another map or playstyle and fear of losing any real or perceived edge will result in them not being the best the best thebest....
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FabriceFABS
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by FabriceFABS »

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Silentwings
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by Silentwings »

Don't all these specs hurt server performance?
No. Maybe a server with poor ping or a severe traffic limit would be hurt, idk but ours don't seem to suffer.
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zalaad
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by zalaad »

In my opinion, specs are computers, not humans !

There are several hundreds maps and several dozens of servers on Spring.

But only 1 map and one server playing.

This is a huge waste of all the work done on maps and even on the software.

Would the developers had made all this work only for THAT ? Seriously ?

Why integrate a server in the game ?
Why do we need a lobby ?
Why work on more maps ?

THIS A HUGE WASTE.

Let players choose between 8v8 and 3v3. The more games you'll have, the more players you'll have.

And don't say that 8v8 are playing 8v8 because they like that. Some probably do. Some others don't. These players just play 8v8 because it's the only available game.

I know no other game where there is only one single game available, where you can wait for more than one hour to play. This is a suicide for the game and for the community.

Do you prefer that Spring die or that 8v8 are sometimes unavailable immediately ? Don't you ever have to wait to play a 8v8 game ? Or is it really the ability to SPEC a 8v8 immediately which is so important that your are ready to let the community die for it ? Why don't you just play replays then ?

Please, instead of criticizing any proposal made to make Spring survive, contribute to the proposal or make other ones.
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smoth
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Re: Whats happening with BA?

Post by smoth »

zalaad wrote:In my opinion, specs are computers, not humans !

There are several hundreds maps and several dozens of servers on Spring.

But only 1 map and one server playing.
Image
yeah, only 1 server.. with people playing...

zalaad wrote:This is a huge waste of all the work done on maps and even on the software.

Would the developers had made all this work only for THAT ? Seriously ?
What developers? what software?
zalaad wrote: Why integrate a server in the game ?
Why do we need a lobby ?
Why work on more maps ?
Wot?
zalaad wrote: Please, instead of criticizing any proposal made to make Spring survive, contribute to the proposal or make other ones.
Spring existed long before you graced us with your presence. it will continue afterwards. I am more tired of you lot popping up yearly telling us how spring will die and driving off players with all the negative nancy crap.
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