Does AAI still work for something?

Does AAI still work for something?

Here is where ideas can be collected for the skirmish AI in development

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Zorbeltuss
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Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Zorbeltuss » 30 Sep 2013, 08:42

In the latest versions of spring AAI has behaved oddly, it just spurts out plane factories and planes and the updating doesn't happen anymore, this is in BA I noticed it when I upgraded to nightlies of 0.9x (spring, not AAI) after checking a bit I noticed that it didn't work for either new versions of BA or spring (as in if I used the old version of one but not the other it didn't work), does anyone know what has happened or if there is a fix coming, submarine doesn't seem to be active nowadays but somebody might have taken over or something.

Anyway it is my favourite ai to use as I like water heavy maps and prefer to play cooperatively with people I know.

/Zorbeltuss
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abma
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by abma » 29 Dec 2013, 04:06

AI's are mostly unmaintained, seems some change broke it... not sure why.
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Silentwings
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Silentwings » 29 Dec 2013, 11:08

At the moment I think many AIs are unmaintained and waiting for someone to come along and work on them.

Also "it didn't work" is 0% information and not useful as a bug report to anyone - say what went wrong, pastebing your infolog.txt and link to it, ideally include a replay of the problem.
Last edited by Silentwings on 29 Dec 2013, 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
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zoggop
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by zoggop » 29 Dec 2013, 20:47

try the Shard dev AI when 96.0 comes out, i've been configuring it with the intention of playing cooperatively against it on maps with mixed terrain. http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=31035

also i agree with Silentwings, KAIK is a big improvement over AAI for compstomp
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Garfonso
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Garfonso » 21 Feb 2014, 15:50

I tried to fix AAI a bit, because I like that it says it is learning... ;)

It can now again build everything... somehow the way how the engine reports back movement information had changed and therefore it classified every ground-build as "unknown" and could only build planes (not only spy planes, though).

But it still is far from being competitive... There are also issues with the internal map representation, it seems. I did not manage to find a sane way to debug them (I tried drawing lines on the map, but they never show up, either the coordinates are totally off map, or I did something wrong). Anyway, the issue is that it tends to close the exits of factories with other building and units get stuck in there.

Still the start of AAI is quite slow.. if you let it play against KAIK or E323AI, they will usually rush AAI to death.

But there seems to be more broken internally. For example I also repaired the ability to build Metal Makers... but it still won't build a lot of them... sometimes it builds one as first building, but then that's it. Although it reaches a point were it totally runs out of metal and also internal calculations are screaming for metal makers... Actually I liked poking around in the code. But I understand far to less about the stuff that is happening there to really make a difference, it seems. :(

I'd like to see an AI that is capable to play a nice endgame with lvl3 units and stuff... my feeling is, that if you survive the first few attacks, you can easily beat all of the AIs.
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zoggop
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by zoggop » 22 Feb 2014, 01:09

Garfonso wrote:I like that it says it is learning...
I really like the idea. Funniest part about its learning I've found is if you attack it with air on a map for a few games, it will spam AA. Er, much to its detriment.
Garfonso wrote:an AI that is capable to play a nice endgame with lvl3 units and stuff... my feeling is, that if you survive the first few attacks, you can easily beat all of the AIs.
Exactly my motive for making the BA Shard config! Right now it's still a bit slow getting there, but it will build lvl3 units and attack with them.
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Garfonso
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Garfonso » 24 Feb 2014, 09:55

zoggop wrote:
Garfonso wrote:I like that it says it is learning...
I really like the idea. Funniest part about its learning I've found is if you attack it with air on a map for a few games, it will spam AA. Er, much to its detriment.
Yes, that's true... AAI builds a table of units of different categories. But there is not category for anti-air. There are some for artillery, assault, ... a lot of stuff. But currently AAI can't differentiate anti-air turrets from ground defence. The same is true for units, it can not see a difference between Anti air bots/vehicles and assault bots/vehicles. :-/
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AF
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by AF » 24 Feb 2014, 15:49

AAI learning is:

If unit A is killed by unit B, increase the efficiency of B and decrease the efficiency of A, build most efficient unit available for current resources

With the addition of separate tables of unit type, plane etc

Adding something similar to Shard would be simple.

KAIK doesnt use this setup, as it pre-calculates efficiency values algorithmically rather than using training AAI style

NTai has mechanisms for AAI style learning, though it doesn't categorise like AAI does, and there are subtle twists

Errors AI and KAIK beat out AAI in it's prime, that won't change by fixing up AAI. Errors AI has its pathfinder rushing, which few other AIs can handle effectively, KAIK has a similar pathfinding mechanism but it's inferior to Errors AI and is intended mainly for other purposes ( such as where to send attack groups ).

I've asked Error in the past if I can put his pathfinder in Shard and he's agreed, but I've not gotten around to it.
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Zorbeltuss
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Zorbeltuss » 11 Apr 2014, 03:47

Oh didn't expect this thread to generate answers so long after it had been made.
The infolog is lost to the flow of time, it might have been possible putting it up when the request for one came, but as there is no way of telling (that I've found) in the forums what you need to post I think there is no need to be rude about it.
About changing to another better ai, that can handle rushes and such, well I won't I don't strive to be a better player, I strive to have fun, being able to play at my extremly sedate pace while having difficulty because of the chosen units of the enemy is fun, not getting anywhere because I'm rushed before I have time to react is not.

Edit: Garfonso is your AAI bundled or findable by any means, I can't test if it is already because I'm having problems with the lobby not showing games.

/Zorbeltuss
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knorke
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by knorke » 11 Apr 2014, 14:36

On AAI wiki page http://springrts.com/wiki/AI:AAI says it supports XTA and BA, so tested.

Map was "Alien Desert", flat landmap with normal metal layout.

XTA: Does nothing. Commander just sits there (infolog is from that)

BA: See replay.
It starts with airlab and some pretty random looking placement of stuff. After some minutes I send 5 units towards it and they kill everything because it has no units except some fighters. There are 2 more airlabs.
The commander runs towards my units and looks at them.
The commander runs away.
The commander runs back to my units and builds a solar in front of them...
So it kind of does work, but not sure if that is interessting to play vs?
No idea if it had gotten stronger with more games or longer games. But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
Attachments
20140112_135457_AlienDesert_96.sdf
(57.38 KiB) Not downloaded yet
infolog.txt
(26.62 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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abma
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by abma » 11 Apr 2014, 14:59

knorke wrote: But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
if i remember right this is fixed in the current dev version of spring.
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Jools
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Jools » 11 Apr 2014, 15:07

abma wrote:
knorke wrote: But starting with 3 airfactories is pretty much sure fail.
if i remember right this is fixed in the current dev version of spring.
Will airstarts be boosted in next spring? ;)
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abma
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by abma » 11 Apr 2014, 15:22

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AF
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by AF » 11 Apr 2014, 15:47

Having AAI build air and then repeatedly massacre the air units with what you'd prefer it to build should fix that. That a blank AAI with no information on what is good or bad ot build built something that's bad is not unusual
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Anarchid
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Anarchid » 11 Apr 2014, 16:27

Afaik games could ship "initial" configs for AAI?

If so, running 100 games on springgrid vs the game's best AI would probably teach it a bit.
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AF
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by AF » 11 Apr 2014, 16:30

Is Springgrid still up and running?
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Anarchid
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Anarchid » 11 Apr 2014, 16:37

Unsure about infra, but the code is on github.
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Garfonso
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Re: Does AAI still work for something?

Post by Garfonso » 11 Apr 2014, 18:07

AF wrote:Having AAI build air and then repeatedly massacre the air units with what you'd prefer it to build should fix that. That a blank AAI with no information on what is good or bad ot build built something that's bad is not unusual
Nope, this really was broken in AAI (and BA). Something in the engine (or game?) changed, that AAI used to classify units as AIR, Ground, Hovercraft, Ship... so it ended up with a bunch of AIR Units (they still worked) and a lot of "unknown" Units it won't build (and also did not find builders for).

I fixed that, so if you build AAI from the dev branch, it will build other stuff, too... it can now again build nearly every unit in BA.

But performance still is.. not so good in my experience. One issue that remains is placing of factories. It seems something changed there, too... AAI often obstructs the exit of its factories, although in the code you can see that it tries to prevent that. I did not manage to fix that, though.
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