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Battletech

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What weapon stat system should we base it on?

Poll ended at 26 Sep 2005, 00:17

Tabletop Battletech
10
56%
MW2
3
17%
MW3
3
17%
MW4
2
11%
 
Total votes: 18

Archangel of Death
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Joined: 28 Jan 2005, 18:15

Battletech

Post by Archangel of Death »

Spring has evolved to the point where it can closely represent the battletech univers. So the time has come. Now it should begin. The first Spring Battletech mod.

First order of the day, decide what weapon stats we are going to base it on. A poll has been put up to decide this. Once this is decided, throwing up all the weapons will be a fast, easy thing for me.

Next is to work out what we are going to base costs on. I'm currently thinking base it off MW4: Mercs costs as a start. This just needs to be decided to some extent and thought about for now.

Now the more tedious and hard part of any mod. We need modellers. There is an old TA: Mechwars mod, but it only has a handful of light mechs, and I'd prefer to get permission from whoever made it before using it. So all you old time TA'ers out there, I'll need help trying to get that if we are to use those models.

Even with models from the MWTA mod, there is alot of modelling work to be done. This needs to go all the way up to the 100 tonners. Now, thats hundreds of mechs so we are starting small. It would be best if we did it in packs.

So to start I need volunteers to start producing clan and innersphere light mechs, along with other vehicles, aircraft, and turrets. I can handle weapon loadouts for those that can't (or don't want to), including aim scripting. I will however need people a little more skilled willing to handle walk animations, we want them to look good now don't we?

Now, another thing that would be nice is a set of maps with more of a Mechwarrior and Battletech inspiration. It would be nice to have a map pack to go along. Throw in some concepts different from normal Spring TA, like base assault/defense, inner-city close-combat brawling, etc.

Edit (Sept 15): Anyone who wants to model a mech (or has a model of a mech), tell me the name, tonnage, and roll and I'll start getting a list up so we don't get duplicate effort here. Try not to go to far over 800 pollies total on the largest mechs. It will probably be balanced so that mechs aren't the most numerous units on the battlefield, but still expect dozens per player.

Also try to keep the primary weapon configuration in mind and have it look like its mounting those weapons. If your not sure on its armament pm me or post here and I'll get it to you with positions asap.

Is some modellors can't texture for any reason let us know and hopefully we can find someone who could get it done for you.

What is currently needed is a couple more medium mechs on both sides, perhaps a couple more heavies (at least 1 for innersphere), and a few more assaults. Also keep in mind unit roles of whats already here and what you might want to make, not to much overlapping in a single class except at considerable wait difference. Don't overload yourselves now!
The following mechs have already been done by bobthedino:
Light:
Clan:
Avar
Cougar
Firemoth
Jenner IIC
Mist Lynx
Locust IIC
Snowfox
Kit Fox
Incubus

Innershpere:
Cheetah
Fireball
Hammer
Hollander
Javelin
Owens
Raptor
Tarantula
Thorn

Medium:
Clan:
Arctic Wolf
Battle Cobra
Conjurrr
Shadow Cat

Innersphere:
Bushwacker
Hunchback
Uziel

Heavy:
Clan:
Cauldron Born
Hellbringer
Timber Wolf
Summoner
Mad Dog

Innershpere:
Archer
Avatar
Catapult
Warhammer

Assualt:
Clan:
Stone Rhino
Marauder IIC

Innershpere:
Atlas
Ontos
The following non-mech vehicles have already been done by bobthedino:
Light:
Clan:
Avar (35 Ton Assault VTOL)
Asshur (Artillery Spotter)
Cheetah (25 Ton Combat VTOL)
Elemental (Standard Power Armour)
Elemental (Machine Gun Variant)
Gabriel (Scout Hovercraft)
Gunship (Light Attack VTOL)
Mithras (Light Battle Tank)
Odin (Scout Tank)
Zorya (Light Battle Tank)
Svantovit (35ton Hover Tank)

Innershpere:
Badger (Tracked Tank)
Donar (Assualt Hellicopter)
Galleon (Light Battle Tank)
H7 Warrior (Attack Hellicopter)
Harraser (Light Missile Platform)
HawkMoth (Assault Helicopter)
Boomerang (Spotter Plane)
Gaurdian (Fighter)
Power Armor (Standard Power Armour)
Power Armor (Flamer Variant)
Kestrel Warrior (Light VTOL)
Mantis (Light Attack VTOL)
Maulter (Hover APC)
Pinto (Attack VTOL)
Savannah Master (Fast Scout Hovercraft)
Seydlitz (20 Ton Assault VTOL)
Skulker (Wheeled Scout Tank)
Sprint IIC (Light Scout VTOL)
Striker (Light Missile Tank)
Saladin (35ton Hover Tank)

Medium:
Clan:
Batu (40 Ton Bomber)
Sulla (45 Ton Assault Bomber)
Epona (50ton Hover Tank)
Hachiman (50 ton Medium Tank)
Ku (50 ton Medium Tank)

Innersphere:
Bulldog (60 ton Medium Tank)
Mechbuster (50 Ton Aircraft)
Regulator (45ton Hover Tank)

Heavy:
Clan:
Sabutai (75 Ton Assault Bomber)

Innershpere:
Shilone (65 Ton Aerotech)
StingRay (60 Ton Aerotech)
Transgressor (75 Ton Aerotech)
LRM Carrier (60 ton Vehicle)
SRM Carrier (60 ton Vehicle)

Assualt:
Clan:
jengiz (80 Ton Aerotech)
Kirghiz (100 Ton Assault Bomber)

Innershpere:
Chippewa (90 Ton Aerotech)
Long Tom (Mobile Artillery)
Stuka (100 Ton Aerotech)

Other
Clan:
Anhur (Mech Transport)
Overlord (dropship)
Union (dropship)
Mapmakers: If we have any interested in making maps for this, the minwind and maxwind suggest value range to use is anything over. A value of 50 will be normal heat sink efficiency. 1 is the coldest you can get as it is scripted to convert 0 or less to 1 to prevent crashes (divide by 0 anyone?) and undesired behavior (reversed heatsinks?). 100 would be rather hot and half heat sink efficiency. To get the heat efficiency you want decide on a percentage and get tempurature as 50/%. So for 120% efficiency 50/120%=~41.7 map temp. And yes, you can use floats (90% sure). I'd like at least some maps with stable tempuratures, minwind=maxwind, but you can vary it, just be sure to calculate efficiency for both max and min. And put in the description that tempurature varies. Also put map tempurature in the description like "cold", "very hot", something like that at least, or an exact tempurature if you want.
Last edited by Archangel of Death on 24 Sep 2005, 10:56, edited 8 times in total.
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Gnomre
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Post by Gnomre »

Bobthedino's brother will be sending me the Mechwars Spring work bob had been doing shortly, and bob has expressed his desire to see someone help/finish it, so I assume that works for permission. I'll get the file to you when I get it myself.
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

If I remember correctly from playing those games, MW2 and MW3 took their weapon stats directly from P&P (Pen and Paper) BTech. Okay, almost, because they took different approaches to converting the multi-fire weapons (LBX-AC, Ultra-AC, Pulse Laser) from turn-based into a real-time environment.

For use in Spring, I'd suggest using for weapons the Lasers/Pulse Lasers from MW2 (they fired in energy bolts instead of instant-hit beams), the Ultra-ACs from MW2, the LBX-ACs from MW3, the SRMs from MW3 and LRMs from MW3, the PPCs from MW4.

As for modeling and such, I would absolutely love to do this stuff, mechs, vehicles, aerotech, and BattleArmor alike.

As for weapon loadouts, I think that a small amount of compromise should be made because some of the 'canon' setups would be just plain funny in Spring. Example: the Timberwolf Prime carries LRM-20s, ER Large Lasers, ER Medium Lasers, Machine Guns, a Pulse Medium laser. That'd be cumbersome to do in Spring, and other 'mechs and vehicles are even worse. The Timberwolf in MW4 just had the 2 LRMs, 2 ER Large lasers, and 2 ER Pulse Mediums, plenty simpler.

Where do I sign up?
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

Sounds like you already did Fizwiz :-)

MW4 uses energy bolts for pulse lasers as well. I've heard its close to the books in weapon stats and how they work. Also it has nice exact damage numbers I would be happy to work with when setting damage values. MW3 only has "low", "medium", "high", etc. damage values that are readily seen, so it would be a little more interesting to convert those into exact numbers. Course, I could also mix MW4 damage with different ranges. I always did prefer MW3 ER Large Laser range superiority.

And on weapon loadouts, I really wouldn't mind doing the cumbersome loadouts. It would be really nice if the models were customized to look like they are carrying those weapons though (much better than sharing firing points). But I have no fears of setting up a full Timberwolf prime 8) . Or Daishi (I can't wait :twisted: ). But I guess I'll have to make a poll in the future to decide that, instead of being the only one who cares to do the extra work for it and it thus taking much longer to complete.

I think I need to reword my poll. We need to decide what we are going to use as a basis for what mechs we are using, weapon loadouts, weapon appearance and stats, and extra equipment. It would make it much more smooth to base it all on one thing than decide on an individual basis.
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

MW4 uses energy bolts for pulse lasers as well
ugh, I can tell you for certain that they are not true bolts. They behave exactly like regular lasers except that they are textured to look like a line of seperated bolts, and they fire faster and weaker. The sad thing is that in MW4 they did the same with the ACs, they were actually a beam given a tracer-like texture. MW4's LoS weapons make me sad.
I've heard its close to the books in weapon stats and how they work
well, I can say that the weapons follow the trends of their canon counterparts. ACs get bigger damage and shorter range as the caliber goes up, Lasers get bigger damage and range and heat as caliber goes up, but I can say with certainty that MW2 followed the P&P BTech stats to the letter, and I know that at the very least MW3's weapon tonnage and crit-spaces were canon. In MW4 the weapons were tailored to fit the its more real-time and arcade-style gameplay. When I play MW4, I use a mod (NBT HardCore) that makes the weapons line up very closely with P&P BTech.
I think I need to reword my poll. We need to decide what we are going to use as a basis for what mechs we are using, weapon loadouts, weapon appearance and stats, and extra equipment
I'd still say tabletop, because that means everything in BattleTech can be considered. I always felt that non-mechs always got the short end of the stick in the MW games.

One more request: Please oh please for the love of all that is good and pure do not call Clan mechs by their inner sphere names in this mod.
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Gnomre
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Post by Gnomre »

Archangel, I sent you a PM with bobthedino's work.
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Kuroneko
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Post by Kuroneko »

one of my favourite features of MW was the ability to power down to avoid detection. Something like that would be handy in spring.

Perhaps in the off position it causes the mech to be radar jammed.
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

@FizWizz: Yah, I was thinking about it and decided going by the tabletop would probably be the best to go by. I imagine trying to convert that over would encourage a better (and more massive) response from those that play it, and I imagine their average player is far more knowledgable about Battletech than the average player of any of the games. It would also be more likely to procure a more dedicated crowd, since more of them would already have been addicted to it for some years.

And yah, I was already thinking Clan names for Clan mechs would be far more awsome. (Even though I do like the word Daishi...)

@Gnome: Thanks, I'll go through it and see whats already done and put it here.

@Kuroneko: I've been considering how to handle radar and los to try to closely resemble (at least what I know) of Battletech. As far as I know I can't keep a unit from being able to move at all, so simulating a complete shutdown won't be possible. Switching to passive radar though should be. Preliminary thought is 400 "meter" los with 1000 "meter" radar. Now, if I can control stealth or radar jamming from the script switching to off would enable stealth instead of the normal disable. It won't be exactly the same because part of a Mechwarriors training is to target without assistance from radar, which they won't be doing. I'm also thinking having innate targeting upgrades, unless I can alter the base innaccuracy, since a Mech pilot isn't that bad a shot at range.

Edit: Preliminary analysis shows that he has done alot of work. A good number of all mech classes are already done. Of course there are a few missing that I'm sure we will want to add (why not have all of them :wink: ) It seems he may have also worked out a jump jet system, but I'll have to look closer to see if I'm right. It looks like his current models will only be needing re-arming to take advantage of increased weapon cap, and in some cases little bits added to the model to match up with the weapons, eg. Twin machine guns for the Timber Wolf's head. As well as renaming for all or most of the clan mechs to their clan names. I'll throw up a couple picks I found in a second, take note of the quality lvl modellers.
Last edited by Archangel of Death on 13 Sep 2005, 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Gnomre
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Post by Gnomre »

Heh, if I remember it correctly, I think someone on TAU said long ago that one unit in 3dobuilder = 1 unit in the script = ~2.7 pixels = 1 meter. Can't remember the basis for that, though, or if it would even work in application to Spring.
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

Here are those pics.
Image
Image
Image
Image
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

Hey, I'm really curious to know: Exactly which units are going to be put in? Which are done? I'd love to put up a unit wishlist with reasons for each item on it, but I don't know where SpringBTech stands right now as far as completed units, proposed units, build trees are concerned.
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SinbadEV
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Post by SinbadEV »

I was just thinking that the basic units you start with should be a really strong basic mech and some wimpy little construction units (a vehicle that can build all basic structures and some build-helping/repair foot-soldiers or something)... because the idea of a base building commander doesn't fit the universe quite so well...
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Guessmyname
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Post by Guessmyname »

Image

I got bored and made these. PM me if you want them
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

Bobthedino has already done alot of mech models. However he happens to be in Kuwait (soon Iraq) right now, and contacting him will be a little slow. What I do know is that he wanted his mod to follow the books. Currently the poll is leaning strongly towards basing it off tabletop, so I'll likely need to do some negotiating to see how much changing he is willing to let us do, and ultimately if we will be merging with his work or splitting off to a entirelly separate and new mod.

For now I'm going to put up a list of what he has done so people can start working on what isn't done. As far as what mechs, etc are going to be included the only limit I can see using is being at the same general tech lvl. Eg. Annihilators might be a little to old if we are throwing Mad Cat Mk. II's into the mix. Perhaps I should put up a poll to pick an era? Personally I think it should be post-second invasion.
Last edited by Archangel of Death on 14 Sep 2005, 02:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

@SinbadEV: Hmm, I was actually considering using dropships as the main start unit. They are just so powerful compared to mechs it would be hard to balance building them. They would still have transport capability, but as mech battles normally go you don't transport your mechs around much anyway. That leaves to be decided whether it would actually build, or make separate construction units (MW3 style mfb's anyone?)
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

Don't exclude the annihilator because it is an aged mech
Consider this: an Annihilator in BTech costs 9.7mil C-Bills, A Direwolf costs 29.3mil C-Bills. The Annihilator has tactical value in its thrift, so don't go discounting old mechs as useless, like the Panther too (which I'd like to see in SpringBTech). I'd compare it to the Timberwolf mk.II that AoD brought up, but my source doesn't have it.
Which raises another question I wanted to ask: How will costs be determined? By the TROs? by in-game balancing? a compromise?
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Archangel of Death
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Post by Archangel of Death »

Well, we could put in every mech. I really wouldn't mind, load times might though. In reality, we should probably decide on a few for each role in each weight class for both sides as a start. Recon, hit-and-run, brawler, fire support, and assault roles as basics, then maybe snipers, energy only (I want Supernovas, and its even more important if an "ammo" system is integrated), "advanced" tech (mechs that are "new" according to whatever era we base it off, like Templars and Fafnirs if we pick MW4's era), etc.

So far I'm planning to base initual costs on the c-bill costs form a source to be chosen later (though probably the same as the source for everything else). I'm also thinking it might be a good idea to take it down to a 1 resource economy. Since I don't think I can change repair to use metal instead of energy, it will probably use that, but call it something else. (Then again, what I've seen of repairing in Spring is good enough reason not to use it at all. It seems to overflow the hitpoints by very large margins alot, and that wouldn't be right. What is the rate based off anyway?) Most costs will probably require some change to get a good balance, but I think its at least a good place to start.

We could then have a limited second resource which could be used for something else, such as highering mercenaries with "unique" mech loadouts (just an example, but I wouldn't mind discussing it later :wink: ).

Edit: I'll try to get the list of what bobthedino has already done up by thursday afternoon (gmt-8 daylight savings).
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FizWizz
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Post by FizWizz »

hey, for making mechs use metal instead of energy to repair, just give them the tag that makes them eat metal constantly ("metaluse=x;"? I'll have to look it up), not much, but enough. and as for ammunition, just give the ammo weapons the tag that uses metal ("metalcost=x;"?). Also, I think that single resource=bad. What if lower tech units just cost less energy relatively and higher tech units need much more energy? That may work as a way of imitating the infrastructure needed to produce tech. As for mercenaries w/ their own custom mechs, I was planning on releasing my tried-and-proven L337 mech designs after Btech for Spring came out anyways :P .
Also: what about vehicles, nobody has said squat about vehicles. Do many of you guys even realise how expensive mechs are in BTech? Mechs are the champions, not the rank-and-file combatants on the battlefield.
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SinbadEV
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Post by SinbadEV »

I knew that... and I don't even play... that's why I suggested you started with 1 mech and a few ground units... mech should be like krogoths in build time, but should be available from the start, so basicall you can start building your first mech right away at a basic facility, and then add build-helpers to the factory later in game to increase the production... maybe make them cost almost nothing to build but have wiked high build times so you just need the construction infrastructure to increase production instead of acctually higher resources... just babbling here
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Guessmyname
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Post by Guessmyname »

I've just stumbled upon this in the tafansite. First coloum, thrid down:

http://www.tafansite.com/index.php?page ... libGUgPSAw

Apparently its a Battletech mech 'stone rhino'
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