Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PauloMorfeo » 08 Nov 2014, 14:20

Starcrap 2 WCS semi+finals today:

http://us.battle.net/blizzcon/en/tournaments/2014/sc2/
MMA vs Classic & Life vs TaeJa

(I'm actually surprised any zerg at all made it this far...)
0 x

User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PauloMorfeo » 08 Nov 2014, 17:13

The more I see Starcrap 2 the more I'm getting disapointed with it...
It feels to me like skill has a definite impact but:
- the game relies too much on the luck of Rock-Paper-Scissor build orders;
- results depend too much on chance (chaos, not luck) of the micro - ex: a couple of good Widow Mine shots and "GG".

Ex:
The match Bomber vs MMA and the match her0 vs Classic - I really feel their results were decided more by chance than anything else. Bomber/MMA either of the players could have gone through (though Bomber is probably a tiny bit better). Her0/Classic, her0 was clearly the better player and still he didn't win.

And their announcements of the upcoming changes for Starcrap 2 are proudly(!) bragging about how there's going to be more micro in the game:
Zerg
Terran
Protoss
There's result-improving "micro" and there's game-defining "micro". Watching good players busting they're heads off playing 10~20~40m games and then suddenly lose them because they've miss-clicked(*) their ultra-game-changing ability... Just sucks...

Ultimately, it feels like there will never be a Federer/Sampras/Ronaldo/Messi/Kasparov/Fatality/etc in Starcrap because whenever a bunch of good players are pitched in a tournament, not enough in terms of skill defines the outcome. Additionally, the game is so micro-intensive that almost all players have a career of only a small number of years before they become too tired and slow to be competitive, preventing any kind of reign.


* way to go, Blizzard, for making the "select" mouse button (left-click) become the delivery button when delivering abilities instead of replacing the standard delivery button (right-click). Now, due to that, every RTS «has to» behave like that...
0 x

MetalSucker
Posts: 98
Joined: 22 Sep 2014, 20:29

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by MetalSucker » 08 Nov 2014, 18:09

I really liked Starcraft.....1 ... for the singleplayer campaign, and Wings of Liberty's single player also was decent enough to give it a try on the hardest level.

Sc is limited by the view size, can't zoom out, so it's kind of got to be micro micro micro for battles, I played zerg on sc2 and just a few months after it launched I wasn't able to keep up on the ladder because I was just a casual player - I generally don't game a lot to be competitive.

But it does have some macro presets, I remember queens being able to inject closest hive by just clicking in the minimap 'somewhere in the area' of the closest hive even with multiple queens selected. The number groups work, it has rally points. It is limiting, but it's the same limit for all the players.

It's more of a close-range rpg multi-unit battle than it is a real time strategy game. And now they are coming out with a FPS, with autoaim of course... I think it's because they are targeting a specific age group (if you look at the trailers). The success pattern for sc2 is repetition, high CPM/APM, it's too fast for most people to be good at it.

trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmKEf-AYhJE
gameplay https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvqZxWLnqco

That's not to say SC2 is a bad game, it's a good one, a lot of people play it, it makes money, it looks good. I see spring as having the potential to offer much better gameplay but spring is more of a realistic battle simulation engine and starcraft 2 is a pretty high poly unit close range fake-physics-just-so-it's-almost-good-enough rts. But shiny!
0 x

User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PauloMorfeo » 08 Nov 2014, 18:24

I always call it "Starcrap" and there's lots of things about it that disgruntle me but I still like the game, play it a bit (mostly campaign) and see a lot of it - it is a good game, indeed.

But it's still Starcrap...
But it's good...
But...
0 x

MetalSucker
Posts: 98
Joined: 22 Sep 2014, 20:29

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by MetalSucker » 08 Nov 2014, 18:38

But it would be better if there was Big Game Hunters in spring (i see there is one) with sc units with a bit more realistic (?!?!) ranges, speeds, unit sizes. But then everything would change and it would be an entirely different game.
0 x

luckywaldo7
Posts: 1397
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by luckywaldo7 » 10 Nov 2014, 20:01

SC2 developers have a serious case of LoL-envy. Everyone thought that SC2 was going to be the penultimate esport of the current age, and LoL more or less appeared out of nowhere to gobble up that title, and SC2 devs spend all their resources trying to play "catch-up" rather than being free to bring innovation.

The thing about LoL is that it manages to have a nice ebb and flow to it from the start to the end. There isn't much of a build-up wait before action starts, there isn't much end-game drag, and there can be "big" exciting plays that look significant (esports announcers and audience love them), but don't actually interrupt the game flow. All of that adds to why LoL is a better esport than SC2.

SC2 devs don't understand game flow at all (or else they realized that it would require significant design overhauls), so they are obsessed with the idea of those "big" plays as a way to improve in the esports scene.
0 x

User avatar
smoth
Posts: 22298
Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by smoth » 10 Nov 2014, 20:03

I don't like the way they changed LOL to emphasize structure for tournaments. I think the game went from play how you want to forced meta as they changed the stats, items and abilities to lock characters into a specific role.
0 x

gajop
Moderator
Posts: 3023
Joined: 05 Aug 2009, 20:42

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by gajop » 11 Nov 2014, 06:40

smoth wrote:I don't like the way they changed LOL to emphasize structure for tournaments. I think the game went from play how you want to forced meta as they changed the stats, items and abilities to lock characters into a specific role.
I don't think the meta was forced by the devs per se, it more or less appeared (and changed) on its own, as is mostly the case with competitive games (MOBAs in particular). The issue may be that balancing is done with the "meta" role in mind.
0 x

User avatar
Hoi
Posts: 2912
Joined: 13 May 2008, 16:51

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Hoi » 12 Nov 2014, 02:56

The chance element is really not that big. The better player wins. There are little exceptions. Yes, scouting can be deciding - but it is a game of imperfect information after all, and all this is accounted for in build orders. Choosing build orders definitely isn't rock paper scissors. This complaint might have had some merit in the past.These days, if you play at a decent skill level, and go for a safe build, you will barely experience any build order losses.

Losing a game due to a misclick is silly. If you are microing your army and misclick you instantly see it and fix it. Besides, good players barely misclick at all. You don't lose the game if you don't look at the right place for a couple milliseconds. All these thoughts are generally speculations by players who play more casually, and do make these kind of mistakes due to inexperience or too low apm. The new micro abilities will actually heighten the skill ceiling, not make the game more random.

There are various players who absolutely dominate, and many examples of months of domination by one single player. But the game just moves faster than tennis does. It is changing constantly. Other pro's are constantly analyzing your strategies, and countering you. New builds and playstyles arise. Can the dominating player adapt well enough to stay on the top?

The first years of Starcraft II showed that the game needed a lot of changes. Changes that did not really arrive with the first expansion. People were frustrated with blizzards policy of not really changing much. And nobody expected anything more for the next expansion. But that's where they were wrong.

Suddenly, they have introduced major game changing features and changes into the alpha version shown at blizzcon. Not only that but the game designers work closely with pro's and the community. For example the economy changes they have made / are making will change the game forever, away from the "deathball" paradigm, to be more like brood war; various armies fighting in various places around the map, because players have to get far more expansions... much more strategical and tactical gameplay.

Will the next expansion finally make the game a fully worthy successor to brood war? Only time will tell. But at least, they are trying, and willing to make many major changes.
0 x

luckywaldo7
Posts: 1397
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by luckywaldo7 » 12 Nov 2014, 15:22

Did I just read something by Blizzard PR? Lots of hype/feel-good and little actual content.
There are various players who absolutely dominate, and many examples of months of domination by one single player. But the game just moves faster than tennis does. It is changing constantly. Other pro's are constantly analyzing your strategies, and countering you. New builds and playstyles arise. Can the dominating player adapt well enough to stay on the top?
His point was basically that SC2 appears to be missing the Bonjwa's of SC/BW.
0 x

User avatar
Silentwings
Moderator
Posts: 3586
Joined: 25 Oct 2008, 00:23

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Silentwings » 12 Nov 2014, 16:16

blizzard wrote:But the game just moves faster than tennis does. It is changing constantly.
wikipedia wrote:The rules of tennis have changed little since the 1890s.
It's good that they went to the trouble of producing factually accurate PR.
0 x

User avatar
Hoi
Posts: 2912
Joined: 13 May 2008, 16:51

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Hoi » 12 Nov 2014, 16:32

luckywaldo7 wrote:Did I just read something by Blizzard PR? Lots of hype/feel-good and little actual content.
There are various players who absolutely dominate, and many examples of months of domination by one single player. But the game just moves faster than tennis does. It is changing constantly. Other pro's are constantly analyzing your strategies, and countering you. New builds and playstyles arise. Can the dominating player adapt well enough to stay on the top?
His point was basically that SC2 appears to be missing the Bonjwa's of SC/BW.
This is pretty much the first time I'm positive about SC2 since 2009.

And sure you had a couple bonjwa's in BW who dominated more than players dominate in SC2. But the difference really isn't that big, and a big part of what has partially prevented it in SC2 is more patches and changes to the game.
0 x

User avatar
Anarchid
Posts: 1380
Joined: 30 Nov 2008, 04:31

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Anarchid » 12 Nov 2014, 18:04

a big part of what has partially prevented it in SC2 is more patches and changes to the game
The claim "there were more changes from SC2 WoL to current moment than there were from equivalent time of SC1 and SCBW" seems weakly supported.
0 x

User avatar
Forboding Angel
Evolution RTS Developer
Posts: 14587
Joined: 17 Nov 2005, 02:43

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Forboding Angel » 14 Nov 2014, 03:07

Sc2 is VERY different now than when it was just WOL. Anyone who tries to refute that clearly does not play the game.

The massive upcoming changes will do a lot for the game, as it has been stagnating. I'm worried about the GGCyclone though. At least they didn't try to bring the GGHound back -_-

Sc2 is fun if you don't take it seriously. If you do, well good luck with that.
0 x

User avatar
Hoi
Posts: 2912
Joined: 13 May 2008, 16:51

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Hoi » 15 Nov 2014, 00:09

Anarchid wrote:
a big part of what has partially prevented it in SC2 is more patches and changes to the game
The claim "there were more changes from SC2 WoL to current moment than there were from equivalent time of SC1 and SCBW" seems weakly supported.
There were no bonjwas in the SC1 pre-BW period. Only when the game was largely established, some time after the release of BW, did that start to happen. So it is appropriate to compare the whole of sc2 exclusively with the BW era of sc1, if you are talking about the prevalence of bonjwas. At least you can't refute the "the game changes a lot" argument by saying sc1 also changed a lot.

Actually the fact that there were no bonjwas in sc1 pre-BW when the game was still changing enormously, and that bonjwas only started to appear once the game stayed more constant (aside from meta changes), is pretty supporting for the argument that there have been no real bonjwas in sc2 (at least not to the degree of dominance as seen in BW), because the game has been changing constantly.
0 x

User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10223
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PicassoCT » 15 Nov 2014, 03:23

Maybee i m getting this wrong.. but is blizzard now doing the lege of leagunds thing by keeping the balance constantly slightly shifting via a patch circle?
0 x

User avatar
PauloMorfeo
Posts: 2004
Joined: 15 Dec 2004, 20:53

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PauloMorfeo » 18 Nov 2014, 01:56

luckywaldo7 wrote:... LoL ... there isn't much end-game drag, ...
Even though I agreed to almost everything you said, I have to disagree with that particular point.

As a watcher of e-Sports I disagree with that - quite often it drags on and on after the game is decided, definitely a huge amount more than Starcrap 2.

As a past player of Dota 2 (currently de-toxed from that addiction), that is still a bone too hard to swallow, since there is no "surrender" in that f#$ stupid game (except for pros in tournaments).


Actually, similar to you, my favourite eSport is Dota 2 (which is very similar to LoL, of course - just better :P). The grand finals of The International 3 were just absolutely out of this world. It was a best out of 5 won on the 5th game in one of the most dramatic game-endings I have ever seen (including traditional physical sports). And The Internation 4 (this year) - godam was it a show to behold!!! (10 million $ of prize money helps too)

Hoi wrote:The chance element is really not that big. The better player wins. There are little exceptions. ...
I used to think that the lack of reigning champions or their short reigns was due to a very balanced competition. I now strongly think it is due to burnout and chance.

The comentators at Blizzcon even cracked a joke at the fact that Zerg players burn out really fast (and then become comentators).

Hero vs Classic:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... ZwQvj4fMUS
Classic won - he's not a "better" PvP player than Hero.

"Losing a game due to a misclick is silly"? Hero missed a scout and lost a game completely, utterly and solely because of that. I hated to watch that game with such a simple mistake defining the result.

"build orders definitely isn't rock paper scissors"? I beg to differ - strongly.
When interviewed, Bomber complained:
"I've done well in recent tournaments.
As a results, I think a lot of my builds have become exposed.
"
That pro-pro player could barely have put it more clearly - his typical choices in the Rock-Paper-Scissor mini-game of build orders had been exposed.
0 x

User avatar
Hoi
Posts: 2912
Joined: 13 May 2008, 16:51

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by Hoi » 20 Nov 2014, 03:59

You obviously have no clue what you're talking about.
The comentators at Blizzcon even cracked a joke at the fact that Zerg players burn out really fast (and then become comentators).
Actually the joke was about protoss players. And what they meant by that is that many non korean pro's who could no longer keep up became casters. These players, were never truly the very best, best of the rest, maybe. This joke is not some kind of deeper complaint about sc2's randomness.
Hero vs Classic:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... ZwQvj4fMUS
Classic won - he's not a "better" PvP player than Hero.
No, hero lost. He totally failed to scout and got cocky after he was far ahead. He's known for losing finals like that, not scouting inbase and getting proxied. You are supposed to scout your base for gates.If you do not it is a calculated risk, which may or may not pay off. And when it pays off it barely makes a difference anyway. Not scouting is a bad decision, especially if others know that you just don't do it.

Whether Classic is a better PvP player than Hero is arguable. What matters is Classic simply played better that match, else he would not have won.

When interviewed, Bomber complained:
"I've done well in recent tournaments.
As a results, I think a lot of my builds have become exposed."
Obviously, if other players have games of their opponents to watch, they will watch and learn about the opponents playstyle. When people talk about build orders like that they don't mean a build order in it's most simple form. They mean a general playstyle, general idea of going into the game eg. play a long game, start with harass at this time and use it to expand, bla bla etc. So if your matches are broadcast a lot you will need to show a variety of builds, you can't generally do the same every game unless it is a really solid macro style, although even if you are that kind of player you still need to throw in aggressive builds every so often. None of this means it's rock paper scissors. Just that being predictable is a disadvantage.

Anyway, it just seems to me you never really played the game. At least not enough to really understand it.
0 x

luckywaldo7
Posts: 1397
Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 04:36

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by luckywaldo7 » 20 Nov 2014, 23:43

Actually the fact that there were no bonjwas in sc1 pre-BW when the game was still changing enormously, and that bonjwas only started to appear once the game stayed more constant (aside from meta changes), is pretty supporting for the argument that there have been no real bonjwas in sc2 (at least not to the degree of dominance as seen in BW), because the game has been changing constantly.
Correlation is not causation.

There doesn't (yet) seem to be a logical explanation for why rapid development could prevent real bonjwas from developing.
0 x

User avatar
PicassoCT
Journeywar Developer & Mapper
Posts: 10223
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12

Re: Starcrap 2 WCS finals today

Post by PicassoCT » 21 Nov 2014, 11:38

All Bankrobbers were not naked.
All Bankrobbers were aggressive.
Therfore i conclude underpants make aggressive.
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “Off Topic Discussion”

cron