AMD "Mantle"

AMD "Mantle"

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Mr. Bob
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AMD "Mantle"

Post by Mr. Bob » 26 Sep 2013, 05:39

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-amd- ... mance.html

This is pretty amazing. I really hope it works out. We need some good OS competition in the PC gaming world, and since DirectX is basically the only thing keeping everything on windows, this could be great. And, ofc, since Source 2 is rumored to not have a line of DirectX, this could be a pretty successful maneuver.

I'm way out of my depth here though.
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jK
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by jK » 26 Sep 2013, 07:12

I expected shit like this, one of the main devs of the amd drivers was talking about low-level access to hw for >1year. And console devs enthused about the new features of NextGen and how much stuff were missing in the recent API.

But here some facts:
1. DirectX is slow, NOT OpenGL, still all DX devs say it would be a general issue and only direct hw access would solve it BULLSHIT
2. OpenGL supports extensions for this very reason, so they could implement all their shiny commands with it, but no they want to have a `AMD only` feature (similar to PhysX for Nvidia just worse)
3. isn't the PC market already heterogeneous enough? do we really want more different systems to work for and esp. now with totally different APIs increasing work like ^1000?
We already had that in the '90 and OpenGL was succesfull CAUSE IT WENT THE OTHER WAY!
4. amd is quite bad hw to code for cause they implement nearly everything in hw instead of having flexible hw (tessellation is implemented in hw etc.), now they added a _dedicated_ sound chip _on the gfx_! Do you really want to code for that on low-level?!
5. Back to Assembler shaders \o/ ... erm no ... nooooo
6. Source2 will likely drop DX and switch to OpenGL cause they want to push their LinuxOS & StreamBox.
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smoth
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by smoth » 26 Sep 2013, 07:41

jK wrote:3. isn't the PC market already heterogeneous enough? do we really want more different systems to work for and esp. now with totally different APIs increasing work like ^1000?
We already had that in the '90 and OpenGL was succesfull CAUSE IT WENT THE OTHER WAY!
^ this... OMG. The 90s sucked. I hated that specific to hardware bullshit.
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hoijui
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by hoijui » 26 Sep 2013, 15:10

reminds me a lot of when ZK(L) collaborated with ueberserver for the multi-engine support. just that here it is EA and AMD.
in theory, the API is open, so the competitors (e.g. NVidia) could just implement it too, and other game devs then EA can use it too. but others had no say in its design, and will have to make drawbacks, and it would cost them more time (and maybe also money) then the originally involved parties to adopt, and they would be ignored when suggesting changes. of course it makes sense for the original parties to do it this way, as they get their stuff done faster and cheaper, and with less quarrel, and they make their competitors lack behind.
in short, it is advantageous for these two parties, and the users (in the short run), and disadvantageous for everyone else, including the users (in the long run). it is an intrinsic property of "free markets", where the main goal is furthering the individual good.
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gajop
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by gajop » 26 Sep 2013, 16:50

blablabla, call me when ATI/AMD makes decent linux drivers, and no, open sourcing the docs and expecting the community to do it is not the answer
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Cheesecan
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Cheesecan » 26 Sep 2013, 17:04

X1 and PS4 both have AMD GPUs, so AMD have some leverage there. With a big company like EA on board..well to say the least, it could be a very different story than during the 3DNow! days.
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zwzsg
Kernel Panic Co-Developer
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by zwzsg » 26 Sep 2013, 19:54

:( Image :(

I'm so sad to see even here people buy into the marketing web of lies.
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Cheesecan
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Cheesecan » 27 Sep 2013, 19:46

zwzsg wrote: I'm so sad to see even here people buy into the marketing web of lies.
Who in here would you be referring to?

Style to me is something subjective, leaving you free to draw your own conclusions based on your opinion.

If anything, I would say the nerd who spends lots of money upgrading his PC to play the latest game, is the real "sucker". Many years ago, I was that guy. Then I grew up and realized that money can be better spent on things like travel, mortgage, savings, etc.

The web of lies for PC hardware and accessories, seems at the very least, equally ridiculous to me.
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AF
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by AF » 27 Sep 2013, 23:05

ATI/AMD graphics drivers have historically been poor from my experiences and what I've seen of other people.

If they cant build a basic driver for such a widespread stable API such as OpenGL, what hope is there of them building an entire API of their own
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smoth
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by smoth » 27 Sep 2013, 23:10

all of af's post
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Silentwings
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Silentwings » 28 Sep 2013, 01:42

+1, using ati in the past has caused me more trouble than its worth
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Cheesecan
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Cheesecan » 28 Sep 2013, 04:22

AF wrote:ATI/AMD graphics drivers have historically been poor from my experiences and what I've seen of other people.

If they cant build a basic driver for such a widespread stable API such as OpenGL, what hope is there of them building an entire API of their own
Worked fine for me, Linux included. For Spring games. :-)

I also built two AMD APU PCs that were a hit with their owners - lots of performance per dollar.
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varikonniemi
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by varikonniemi » 28 Sep 2013, 11:21

Nvidia is almost forced to support mantle. They have no chance of pushing a competing product out since AMD produces the current and next gen consoles graphics and mantle can be used to code for both xbox one and pc.

I am quite confident this will be a big step in computer graphics history. The moment when console style efficiency meets the PC.

How much does it matter it was designed with amd hardware in mind rather than nvidia i don't know. I read somewhere that amd uses much more dedicated hardware for all the different functions where nvidias designs are more general. I would imagine dedicated hardware gains more from a dedicated api since all units can be active in parallel without blocking other functions.
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jK
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by jK » 28 Sep 2013, 11:49

varikonniemi wrote:Nvidia is almost forced to support mantle. They have no chance of pushing a competing product out since AMD produces the current and next gen consoles graphics and mantle can be used to code for both xbox one and pc.
You don't understand anything at all what Mantle is.
Mantle IS NEVER compatible between different hardware, it won't even be for 2 different AMD gpu generations (Mantle won't be compatible for HD5xxx & their upcoming GCN!!!).
It is low-level, means you have to code for each hardware separatly.

So Nvidia could write their own Mantle `driver`, but it could never be compatible with AMD's Mantle for current gen or GCN.
Last edited by jK on 28 Sep 2013, 11:49, edited 1 time in total.
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gajop
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by gajop » 28 Sep 2013, 11:49

varikonniemi wrote:I am quite confident this will be a big step in computer graphics history.
Yes, but it'll be a big step... backwards. We don't need more standard non-compliant shit.
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Cheesecan
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by Cheesecan » 28 Sep 2013, 14:27

gajop wrote: We don't need more
No, but DICE obviously does. Do you work there? If not how do you know what is best for them :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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CarRepairer
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by CarRepairer » 28 Sep 2013, 19:27

jK is there a way we ould make our voices heard? Turn our rage (not ATi rage) into action? Maybe an Occupy Graphics movement. I am tired of being pushed around by those bastards at AMD. It makes my blood boil.
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gajop
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by gajop » 28 Sep 2013, 20:19

Image
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varikonniemi
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by varikonniemi » 28 Sep 2013, 20:21

jK: Mantle works on all GCN hardware. It is next gen as in no support for older cards.
Image

Mantle is the api one now can use to code for the low level GCN (or xbox one), bypassing direct x/open gl. "Mantle driver" is what nvidia needs to provide to support the open mantle api (programs that run on mantle).

Tell me why im wrong?
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jK
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Re: AMD "Mantle"

Post by jK » 28 Sep 2013, 22:44

varikonniemi wrote:Mantle is the api one now can use to code for the low level GCN (or xbox one), bypassing direct x/open gl. "Mantle driver" is what nvidia needs to provide to support the open mantle api (programs that run on mantle).

Tell me why im wrong?
That ATi says itself that only GCN is supported is the proof.
As already said it is a low level `api`, it is designed to map commands 1:1 on hardware commands similar to assembler. So instead of giving you functions like `upload texture`, `draw here`, ... it has commands like `copy data into register A`, `copy data from AGP ram to video ram`, `write color C to memory location X`.
Obviously different hardware designs use _different commands_ and so Mantle cannot be compatible by logic! Except they write microcode/wrappers for the commands, which is A. not always possible and B. not low level and so against Mantle's design rules & goal (making it useless vs. the other APIs).

I.e. it is not future compatible, so you won't be able to run a ~2years old game on recent GPUs cause the game was written for another GPU generation and so the used Mantle differs then from the most recent. Making the whole thing is absurd.
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