Are we rally that bad?

Are we rally that bad?

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

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SinbadEV
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Are we rally that bad?

Post by SinbadEV » 04 Aug 2009, 23:26

Or is the problem that too many useless n00bs with no knowledge of anything (let alone the project) keep coming in, not bothering to search, asking stupid questions, make stupid suggestions while being too lazy to contribute... and then bruise like peaches when we try to tell them how it is?

Do we really want people like that here in the first place?

If I'm a troll then maybe trolling is a good thing.

(As a Forum Moderator I would like to point out that this should not be taken as a licence to troll, flame-bait or otherwise be a Jerk... Jerkiness is not okay.)
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MidKnight
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by MidKnight » 04 Aug 2009, 23:35

SinbadEV wrote:Do we really want people like that here in the first place?
YES!
I was fairly inept computer-wise (mind you, more apt than your average person!) when I first discovered spring (I wonder how I even managed to install it :| ). Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of me, it is a fact that I have made important contributions to CA and the community in general, and have become a much more capable content developer than I was before I started working on things for Spring.

Secondly, players, however useless, are a good thing, and it'd be stupid to drive them off. Remember that many developers flock to the communities with the most players, and that popular games' playerbases can sometimes be solely populated by this sort of player.
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Regret
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Regret » 04 Aug 2009, 23:58

I like newbs in games, they provide much needed commanders for me to use as ammo. As far as their stupidity is concerned, I prefer when the idiotic ones leave after a few games.
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 00:01

To your question, I can give you an unqualified "yes". I've been telling you guys this for years, though, so I'm not exactly holding my breath on everybody suddenly realizing that:

A. Un-constructive criticism and flames generally detract from a community, and serve no valid purpose.

There is a huge difference between "I don't agree that's best, why not try this" and "you suck, your work sucks, and you're an idiot". One's valid, and phrased politely, is useful. One's neither valid nor useful, and should result in an erasure or temp-ban.

B. Newbies see these things, and draw conclusions about whether to spend their effort here or elsewhere.

We have no idea how many people show up here because they've heard about the project's goals... and then leave, because they catch some post where we're cursing at each other or generally dragging each others' names through the digital mud. This whole "bruise like peaches" thing indicates mainly that you don't get it- those first few posts are often the keys to starting a long-term relationship with this place.

C. The main reason to have moderators at all is to prevent people from behaving badly, so that the community remains healthy.
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Master-Athmos
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Master-Athmos » 05 Aug 2009, 00:15

Well I guess considering the general behaviour towards newbies who don't really figure out how Spring is supposed to work I guess we or at least some of us are "bad". But I guess that's not unusual because you tend to be that way when answering the same questions over and over again...

I also think though that as a long-time Spring user you lose a bit of the sight a newbie has on Spring. I still remember that I had "problems" when installing Spring for the first time and it took me over half an hour just to figure things out. Today it's just a simple "Install Spring, push files in the specific folders, maybe change some settings here and there and that's it.". I cannot understand what I found so strange about Spring back then but I guess that's just some kind of illusion you get after a while...

When we're talking about modders things are kinda related. As a newbie everything is quite confusing but once you know things it seems to be quite clear. I guess we should really redo the wiki for that manner and devs should drop some more lines on what was changed and how exactly things work now...

I mean just to give some examples you often read something like "Just look up the changelog for the latest changes on a specific topic and get a totally brief description of how it works now from there". Apart from this not being intuitive and the changelog descriptions often being very very brief imagine you're a noob. So where is that changelog? I guess you'd go to the development part but then. It's sort of a dead end from that point and now guess what happens? The person will ask about it...

Another example is that there is no "feedback from the developers". I mean in the last few weeks I learned that there is a new GUI framework and a Lua "replacement" for unit scripts in the works. All of this just was written down casually pretty much in a subordinate clause way - in one case even with the complaint that pretty much no one is testing this. How could they if next to nobody knows about it...

So I guess in terms of the development side we just need more clear and clean structure for everything and no info that are spread over the entire forum (look e.g. at all the stickies in the game and mods forum) and wiki (multiple articles for e.g. mod development often outdated or incomplete)...

In terms of the players side we really need to do something to make the entry more clear (I bet next to EVERYONE will start Spring.exe when wanting to (single-)play Spring). Giving them that rudimentary menu doesn't help making them understand that this is the wrong way to do it. Then there also is the forum and the chat where you'll often be confronted with either l33t or bad language as compared to other game sites I know people have very much freedom in carrying out flamewars and personal attacks here. So if they didn't leave after not being able to figure things out in the first 5 minutes they probably will leave at that point...
Last edited by Master-Athmos on 05 Aug 2009, 00:49, edited 2 times in total.
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1v0ry_k1ng
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by 1v0ry_k1ng » 05 Aug 2009, 00:34

everyone begins as a noob.
driving everything away at the noob stage of growth means the 5% or so that would be good at the games and benefit the community will leave too.
its best not to be harsh until the player in question is at least four stripe
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 00:34

Another example is that there is no "feedback from the developers". I mean in the last few weeks I learned that there is a new GUI framework and a Lua "replacement" for unit scripts in the works. All of this just was written down casually pretty much in a subordinate clause way - in one case even with the complaint that pretty much no one is testing this. How could they if next to nobody knows about it...
I agree with this. The best way to solve that is to post a public changelog, so that it's no longer buried and the sole domain of the few of us who know about this.
its best not to be harsh until the player in question is at least four stripe
Exactly, or about 20 posts into being a Forum member or thereabouts- long enough to know that they're going to get cut down to size if they don't educate themselves.
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knorke
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by knorke » 05 Aug 2009, 00:39

this stickied giant ass chatlog is representative for all spring:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14717

do you refer to player side or moding side?
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Beherith
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Beherith » 05 Aug 2009, 01:17

My thoughts on this:
The devs and content devs mainly consist of the OTA crowd, and I think we reached out to as many of them as possible. Since they are slowly moving on, its natural that the percieved quality of members drops.

Now most of the new guys dont have this fever that you all do.
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 02:02

The "slowly moving on" is happening, sure. What really bothers me is that we keep blowing new people out of the water, instead of showing a little sensitivity, and therefore losing them.

I love the defense of said behavior:
Spring forums have always been brutally honest, and all the better for it.
Now, let's view that "brutal honesty":
Looks like photoshop v1.0 work from the 90's.
That's certainly "brutal", but hardly useful or constructive. Way to go, FLOZi, you're helping the next generation of modders out there, you betcha.

As for why that's an issue, I'll just quote the "rules":
1. No flaming or insulting of other users, respect for all other users is mandatory and assumed regardless of postcount, amount contributed, or time active.

2. Comments about content others have produced must be constructive. This is not to say that you must pretend you like every piece of content made by other community members, this is to say that comments like "it sucks" or "wow, that's a shitty whatever" are inappropriate and will be considered as flaming.
Seems pretty open-and-shut to me, guys. You don't need to be Solomon to enforce those rules.
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by FLOZi » 05 Aug 2009, 02:27

Better to be brutally honest than spew utter fallacies about something you don't comprehend. :wink:
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 02:27

Here, FLOZi, read this (fake) response to Spiked's latest work:
@Spiked: that's a great skin for something that isn't normalmapped, but it's entirely inappropriate to your game's spec.

Too much texture space is being used on guys who will just be tiny specks in actual play, imo. Investing the time to paint them to this level of detail is a big waste of your production time. The details would be more suitable for a game with smaller unit counts and a closer POV.

I'd quarter the resolution on that texture.
There you go. It's "brutally honest", and I haven't called anybody a dumbass or made a "personal attack", so it's not a "flame" by your warped standards.

However, most would agree that it's not very nice, and probably not productive- you guys want your entire gameworld to be detailed, even when it's probably not that useful. So, it's better to just say nothing, or to say, "great skin man!" and move on, I think we can all agree.

However, if those are the rules we're all going to play by, I'll be happy to be "brutally honest" with you guys every time you post progress shots from now on. It'll be funny watching you curse like crazy, but sad to watch you act like hypocrites when given a taste of your own medicine, and even sadder to watch the Moderators suddenly take an interest in enforcing our "rules".
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FLOZi
MC: Legacy & Spring 1944 Developer
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by FLOZi » 05 Aug 2009, 02:34

You post criticisms like that all the time Argh, :lol: , nevermind constant reminders of your own superior methods for just everthing. At any rate, that crticism is perfectly valid, though as you point out, we have a reason for doing it.

At the end of the day, not one single member of the S44 team could give two hoots about what you think anyway.
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 02:46

At any rate, that crticism is perfectly valid, though as you point out, we have a reason for doing it.
I know it's valid. I just don't say stuff like that because it's churlish and a total waste of my time, to boot. Whether something is "valid" or not is often beside the point.

However, your comment about Doleo's work wasn't "valid".

You have no basis to judge the work, other than a statement that it's not to your taste. It's not like we've seen a broad sample of his workmanship. Maybe he's awesome, but he was in a hurry. Maybe he sucks, and this was his first halfway-decent effort, made in what he thought was a good cause. Either way, you were jumping the gun.

If you and several others had been a bit more gentle, he might have given it another go, instead of concluding (rightfully) that we're elitist jerks that wouldn't give him the chance to refine his work.

That's all I am saying, really. Be nicer to people, and only pull out the baseball bat when nothing else works. It's counterproductive to think that all "valid critique" is good critique- the last time I checked, "good critique" emphasized both good and the bad of a work. When you just deliver the bad, you undermine the artist.
Last edited by Argh on 05 Aug 2009, 02:52, edited 1 time in total.
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JohannesH
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by JohannesH » 05 Aug 2009, 02:50

If everyone had been nice and cuddly to Doleo, do you think his frontend plans wouldve gotten anywhere then?
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Argh
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Argh » 05 Aug 2009, 02:54

I think that if people had been nice, but said "hey, we like the general idea but we don't like the art / approach", then he'd probably be working on his second attempt by now, instead of running off in a huff, yes.

This isn't the first time that this has happened, and FLOZi's right, I've been one of the guilty myself, although I try to be a lot more gentle nowadays. Even when I hate a piece and think it's totally awful, I try to find something I like / appreciate about it, because it's not very good critique if you're just trashing somebody's work.

IOW... it's not that I disagree with saying, "hey, we appreciate the effort, but it's not suitable"... it's just that several people forgot the "we appreciate the effort" part.
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SinbadEV
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by SinbadEV » 05 Aug 2009, 05:22

Oddly enough, when I posted this I wasn't being ironic, I really felt that Doleo had come in here with a messiah complex and left when we told him he was wasting our time... after a day to cool down and reading though what y'all have posted I don't feel so confident in this opinion.

Its funny how much nicer we are when we're talking about how big jerks we are. For the record I was talking more about would-be modders and developers then players, though our vitriolic posts in any context must be construed as unwelcoming by all those who happen across them.

When it comes right down to it, maybe there is a point when we should hold our tongue despite what we perceive as an assault on our sensibilities... I've posted bad ideas before and it hurts to have them cut down in their infancy, even if later I realize that the criticism applied was entirely appropriate.

So, how about these helpful suggestions?

If someone doesn't appear to be showing enough effort or talent to be worthy of positive commentary, don't comment. (that's like, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all)

When you make a post, before hitting submit, re-read is and ensure that it is directed at the content of a post, not its author.
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maackey
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by maackey » 05 Aug 2009, 05:22

Are we rally that bad?
- yes
Do we really want people like that here in the first place?
- yes
If I'm a troll then maybe trolling is a good thing.
- NO
(As a Forum Moderator I would like to point out that this should not be taken as a licence to troll, flame-bait or otherwise be a Jerk... Jerkiness is not okay.)
- then why oh *why* would you say that "trolling is a good thing"?!?

When the MODERATORS say that its OK to troll newbs that is very indicative that something is amiss. This whole attitude really pisses me off, and is not beneficial to the community as a whole. I mean, seriously, what the hell does this accomplish?!
Or is the problem that too many useless n00bs with no knowledge of anything (let alone the project) keep coming in, not bothering to search, asking stupid questions, make stupid suggestions while being too lazy to contribute... and then bruise like peaches when we try to tell them how it is?


"n00bs" are not useless.The human race would survive long if we just killed all our babies because they can't do anything themselves. That is what newbies are. They are babies.

Babies don't have thick rawhides; they are delicate, fragile things that need to be slowly introduced to new things gently, without baseless demeaning insults.

Babies are stupid; they can't figure out how to do anything on their own. They can't read, not to even mention searching for something in the abysmal mess that is the spring wiki/forums but can see shiny colors and pictures (This is generally the mods' individual faults, as Spring is really supposed to be only an engine, but it is an issue nonetheless)

Why do you expect some skilled coder/artist to contribute to spring when they are treated like crap? Assuming of course that they are lazy instead of just plain unskilled: which the majority of people are. Not every single player needs to also be a content/mod developer/modder/pro coder/ etc... It is silly to think otherwise.

Heck, I didn't know the first thing about modeling when I first started making units for CA, but I learned over time. But only because I ignored the idiots and trolls who told me my work is crap, which people will still do now, that I have been able to learn loads about a lot of different things. If people were more supportive around here, and less trollish/condescending, I would have learned much quicker and have been more motivated.

I try to help out in #newbies and I agree that the ignorance gets a little overwhelming, but there are so few people its nice to even see some new blood. Its not nice to see people being mean and making rude remarks.
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Gota
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by Gota » 05 Aug 2009, 08:21

Noobs provide comic relief...
On a more serious note,I think noobs are necessary no mater how dumb,inpatient or newbie...Spring as a whole needs to get as many players as possible,capable or not.
Also any player with deficiencies should still be able to enjoy mods and games running on the Spring engine
And Current spring devs and players should be polite and generous enough to help them.
What Spring has a lot of and shouldn't is Malicious behavior of people that makes them tear anything apart if they don't approve of it or did not make it.
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CarRepairer
Cursed Zero-K Developer
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Re: Are we rally that bad?

Post by CarRepairer » 05 Aug 2009, 08:49

SinbadEV wrote:So, how about these helpful suggestions?

If someone doesn't appear to be showing enough effort or talent to be worthy of positive commentary, don't comment. (that's like, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all)

When you make a post, before hitting submit, re-read is and ensure that it is directed at the content of a post, not its author.
Good idea. As a moderator, will you enforce it? Or will your words eventually disappear into the depths of offtopic and forever from our memories?
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