Save KZ!

Save KZ!

Post just about everything that isn't directly related to Spring here!

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SwiftSpear
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Save KZ!

Post by SwiftSpear » 26 Apr 2009, 06:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fj88Re8hrU&fmt=22

I've earned the right to 1 tiny propaganda thread for something I care about :P
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KDR_11k
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by KDR_11k » 26 Apr 2009, 08:41

No, we will not save the concentration camps!
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PicassoCT
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by PicassoCT » 26 Apr 2009, 10:46

Valve is infamous for destroying the Krill (those little Mod/Games that grow since Hl1 on there Games) without a doubt or mercy. Me remembers when they "updated" TF1, and got rid of that oldstyle numberkey select which class you want to be next, or which to change into as spy.. instead mouse controll, man it sucked so hard... words fail to describe..

I confess i ve heard about jumping & trick competition in the Quakes, but never looked that mutch into it..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFV95Ret ... re=related
nice competitions...
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Spawn_Retard
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Spawn_Retard » 26 Apr 2009, 11:07

essentially parkour within counter strike?

I've always classed people that use jump height and the abillity to reach levels on maps that aren't easy to reach by a simple noob as glitching.

As i like to kick people who do so.

Although if this sort of stuff stays out of real games, and ends up as a seperate thing where people come to only jump about, i do not see the problem.

Ingame though, "KREEDZ", or glitch jumping as i call it, is not acceptable when playing a fair game.
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rattle
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by rattle » 26 Apr 2009, 11:42

KDR_11k wrote:No, we will not save the concentration camps!
We'll rebuild them!
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Apollo
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Apollo » 26 Apr 2009, 12:11

rattle wrote:
KDR_11k wrote:No, we will not save the concentration camps!
We'll rebuild them!
and we'll help :D
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PicassoCT
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by PicassoCT » 26 Apr 2009, 12:35

Work makes free.. sounds like the patriot act to me..

end of sarcasm.. i always knew for Swiftspear we are just numbers, to be kicked & banned from live, for minor flaws

It┬┤s not a deathmarch, it┬┤s a deathjump&run..
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Regret
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Regret » 26 Apr 2009, 13:09

Spawn_Retard wrote:I've always classed people that use jump height and the abillity to reach levels on maps that aren't easy to reach by a simple noob as glitching.

As i like to kick people who do so.

Although if this sort of stuff stays out of real games
I never thought you were a total dumbass, guess I was wrong.
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Beherith
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Beherith » 26 Apr 2009, 13:18

That took you quite long Regret.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by SwiftSpear » 26 Apr 2009, 13:38

Spawn_Retard wrote:essentially parkour within counter strike?

I've always classed people that use jump height and the abillity to reach levels on maps that aren't easy to reach by a simple noob as glitching.

As i like to kick people who do so.

Although if this sort of stuff stays out of real games, and ends up as a seperate thing where people come to only jump about, i do not see the problem.

Ingame though, "KREEDZ", or glitch jumping as i call it, is not acceptable when playing a fair game.
It's a part of the game. That's pretty much on par with banning good players for "hacking" just because they're better than you. I mean, I guess it depends on the game, the shooters I'm used to embrace trick jumping. NS, TF2, Quake, CS... I guess it's potentially more destructive in a tactical game... but meh, it's still ultimately the mappers fault if a map has exploits.

Anyways, that's not really the issue. Valve isn't breaking trickjumping persay, they are significantly modifying a fundamental part of the movement code which is massively utilized in many of the trickjumping maps, and nearly all of the world record runs. Effectively it would be forcing the jump community, which is somewhere in the range of 200,000 players strong, to start over from scratch. The jumping is all basically the same, it's the ducking they want to change. As I understand it, it stems from an attempt to fix duck running, which is a technique that allowed scripters to run nearly full speed in CS while making no noize. They added in a sound when the duck key was pressed while going a certain speed, and for some reason it caused some technique that competitive players used to sneak up and knife people to break (because it made sound). So they decided significantly changing the movement system was a better fix.

It's honestly just bizzare, to "fix" something that only effected people who are the tiniest minority (pub scripters) by breaking something competitive players used... and then to "fix" the fix, by screwing with movement code that has been the staple of the HIGHLY established platform for 6 years.

The "exploit spots" on CS maps will all still be exactly the same and basically just as accessible if you know how the movement code works. So it's not like the fix changes exploits, it just changes the way the physics works which makes certain extremely high end techniques used by jumpers that only show up in jump maps and world record runs no longer work.
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smoth
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by smoth » 26 Apr 2009, 17:50

This is weak crap, the quake trick jumping scene is much more impressive.


That aside I can understand where you are coming from but 2 questions?

how does this change really break things?

doesn't it just mean they have to discover NEW techniques?
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Spawn_Retard
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Spawn_Retard » 26 Apr 2009, 22:06

SwiftSpear wrote:
Spawn_Retard wrote:essentially parkour within counter strike?

I've always classed people that use jump height and the abillity to reach levels on maps that aren't easy to reach by a simple noob as glitching.

As i like to kick people who do so.

Although if this sort of stuff stays out of real games, and ends up as a seperate thing where people come to only jump about, i do not see the problem.

Ingame though, "KREEDZ", or glitch jumping as i call it, is not acceptable when playing a fair game.
It's a part of the game. That's pretty much on par with banning good players for "hacking" just because they're better than you. I mean, I guess it depends on the game, the shooters I'm used to embrace trick jumping. NS, TF2, Quake, CS... I guess it's potentially more destructive in a tactical game... but meh, it's still ultimately the mappers fault if a map has exploits.

Anyways, that's not really the issue. Valve isn't breaking trickjumping persay, they are significantly modifying a fundamental part of the movement code which is massively utilized in many of the trickjumping maps, and nearly all of the world record runs. Effectively it would be forcing the jump community, which is somewhere in the range of 200,000 players strong, to start over from scratch. The jumping is all basically the same, it's the ducking they want to change. As I understand it, it stems from an attempt to fix duck running, which is a technique that allowed scripters to run nearly full speed in CS while making no noize. They added in a sound when the duck key was pressed while going a certain speed, and for some reason it caused some technique that competitive players used to sneak up and knife people to break (because it made sound). So they decided significantly changing the movement system was a better fix.

It's honestly just bizzare, to "fix" something that only effected people who are the tiniest minority (pub scripters) by breaking something competitive players used... and then to "fix" the fix, by screwing with movement code that has been the staple of the HIGHLY established platform for 6 years.

The "exploit spots" on CS maps will all still be exactly the same and basically just as accessible if you know how the movement code works. So it's not like the fix changes exploits, it just changes the way the physics works which makes certain extremely high end techniques used by jumpers that only show up in jump maps and world record runs no longer work.


I play TF2, COD series, crysis, quake wars ect. and all of these games have strict rules about jumping on things around the map.

What im trying to get at here is that:

I have no problem about showing off on youtube or to your buddys about how cool you look when you jump across a map with just using bricks that stick out of walls ect.


What I do not condone is the use of jump glitches to get up and into points where you can camp or have a far greater advantage over the other team because your in a certain area where no one can see you, but you can see them sort of situation.

in pub games or tactical clan matches i think glitching is banned pretty fucking fast, and no matter what you want to call it, or how many other people do it, its still against game design.


You keep it in your coustom games and laugh at how noobs cant find you/cant jump like you is fine.

I think bawwwing over the loss of high end techniques is nothing to make a campaign over.

You're lucky the devs just don't reduce the jump height all together to stop stuff like that.
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Peet
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Peet » 26 Apr 2009, 22:17

It's pretty funny that you think you know what sort of games swift is talking about, but don't. But you're a cod4 pro so you obviously know more about counterstrike niche gamestyles.
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Spawn_Retard
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Spawn_Retard » 26 Apr 2009, 22:49

I used to play counter strike before i upgraded my computer peet.

If i recall, it was pretty serious stuff, being banned for glitching was a often practice.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by SwiftSpear » 27 Apr 2009, 00:01

I'm not talking about regular maps or competitive play anyways. I'm talking about jump maps. I haven't even played the shooting game in counterstrike for over a year. Let players who actually play both worry about server rules.

There's over 500 jump maps that have official world records recorded on them, and the standards for having a map go official are reasonably stringent. We're really not talking about a tiny fringe community here. The KZ community is like 10 times the size of spring. These are specifically people who race on jumpmaps, there's no intent to glitch or exploit. The vast majority of those people don't even play CS. Jumpmapping is a totally different game and has accumulated a totally different set of fans.

Smoth: I prefer CS jumpmapping to quake jumpmapping because of the limitations imposed. Yes, it's slower paced, but that levels the playing field a little more and makes it that much more amazing when great players do exceed the capabilities of everyone else. It pissed me off on high end bhop maps you'd bhop like a 70 jump combo just to not have quite enough speed at the end for the longjump. I've never encountered a jump like that in Kreedz. KZ maps definately have hard jumps in them, but they basically don't penalize you at all if you're checkpointing, and you shouldn't be jumping without checkpoints if you know you're not capable of making most of those jumps. I'm not claiming it makes a better video, but it's easier to pick up, more sanely paced, and generally less immensely frustrating.
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Jazcash
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by Jazcash » 27 Apr 2009, 00:29

SwiftSpear wrote:The KZ community is like 10 times the size of spring.
Not very big then? :D
Dumbass wrote:I've always classed people that use jump height and the abillity to reach levels on maps that aren't easy to reach by a simple noob as glitching.

As i like to kick people who do so.
So you're saying because a noob can't do something that a regular player can, means the regular player is a glitcher, cheater and should be banned from the game.

Seeing as you play Halo a lot, you should know about the crouch jump. When you crouch at the end of your jump just to get that tiny bit of extra height. This allows you to reach levels higher than usual but is not a specified tactic/ability stated by Bungie.

Does that make the 99% population of Halo players glitchers, cheaters and haxors? No, it doesn't. So you can ban players who are better than you all you like but it won't change the fact you have no idea how a game works. I am disappointed in you.
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BaNa
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by BaNa » 27 Apr 2009, 02:51

cant you just keep on using the old version?

i stopped playing cs back when they took out bunny hopping (or nerfed it or w/e)
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smoth
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by smoth » 27 Apr 2009, 03:19

still wondering about questions 1&2.

met a guy at q-con who was teaching me how, didn't practice it and failed hard. :P. I really like the speed of the quake jump stuff. I used to not believe it but when I watched that guy do it I was like holy shit. ESP plasma climbing.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by SwiftSpear » 27 Apr 2009, 08:28

BaNa wrote:cant you just keep on using the old version?

i stopped playing cs back when they took out bunny hopping (or nerfed it or w/e)
It's a massive inane hassle to do that with steam now. I will try if it's possible.
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SwiftSpear
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Re: Save KZ!

Post by SwiftSpear » 27 Apr 2009, 08:38

smoth wrote:how does this change really break things?
Effectively it slows things down just a little bit more. The actual change is adding a slowdown to the +duck command in certain situations. The reason this is destructive for KZ is that it breaks 4 or 5 fundimental techniques that are heavily used in KZ maps. Headbangers: run duck and jump with such timing that you do not hit your head on an overhead obstacle. Doubleduck: rapidly spam the duck command, usually with the mousewheel to produce a bounce effect that lets you walk up low obstacles without jumping onto them, jumping already has a slowdown, so if you can prevent it you do. Duckstand Bhop: if you're bhopping and you are about to jump onto a high obstical, you can duck into the bhop, and then rise again the next hop after, very useful for making the bhop that much longer and avoiding the jump landing slowdown. Countjump: Makes use of the bouncing effect of double ducking to gain a tiny bit of extra air speed before you acctually take off from a longjump, very difficult but allows for slightly longer long jumps.

How it breaks things? A few maps will be impossible to beat, however, the primary issue is that because 100% of the world record demos are done with the old system, and the old system at the professional level is a little bit faster, the vast majority of the world records would be impossible to beat simply because the tricks used for speed in the records would no longer be possible. Effectively it would force them to entirely reset the world records. It would also be increadibly frustrating to work with the new system because even for newer players, certain basic techniques they used to use for specific jumps now arbitrarily wouldn't work any more. We'd all have to relearn everything.
doesn't it just mean they have to discover NEW techniques?
Unfortunately no, it's not adding anything to the game that could be turned into a new technique, it's just slowing down the way the game works a little bit.
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