Want a game without exponential growth?

Want a game without exponential growth?

Various things about Spring that do not fit in any of the other forums listed below, including forum rules.

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NeonStorm
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Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by NeonStorm » 03 Dec 2013, 19:11

Currently most mods use some sort of exponential growth:
Zero-K: Overdrive
BA/TA/Nota/... T2 mexes and makers.

--- I want to see some very different games too. Example: ---

* You have many 1-geo spots and a lot of free space around (about 3x Screamer/Mercury radius between)
Geos are important (not like BA/ZK/... where you can just replace them easily by wind farms or solars and later fusions - just because of exponential eco advantage is easier to archive than territory control)

* No metal spots (or very spaced (1..2x Screamer radius) and very few metal) - but sun storms cover the map periodically with new reclaimates.
They can come together with weak and strong EM effects which are dangerous to the cheapest of your units - you get what you pay for :)
(Note: EM-Effect vs EMPulses --is about the same as-- mist vs 10-meter solid-water-waves)
EM effects reduce radar, disable un-shielded electronic devices, ...

* Give geos an impact or at least EM shield - to make sure they are in the middle of your base.
Instead of just more shields, you can upgrade your shield by building shield-enhancers within geo-shields (the geo is your nanoframe-starter: recharge, capacity, ability to deflect faster projectiles or replace by a bigger shield) - just 1 big beautiful textured shield sphere and other buildings around look better than overlapping shields.

* I know how to add asteroid spawns to a map, but we have only a few good maps which are big enough to not be over-porced (Thus asteroids only supporting the player which already has map control) or have flat terrain around and many geo spots.

Maps like Hex-Farm can help out, but the latest version (with a lot of thin spikes) lags with spiders and is bad with ZK terraform - needs changes for this kind of game.

* Air superiority rewards you with intel - always scout ahead
There should be some free area - unlike BA and ZK.
Free of heavy defenses in most games (not porc-the-whole-map), except maybe some small cloaked intel, repair/refuel stations and/ambush bunkers (fill it with T0 mobiles).


T0: low-energy units are weak suicide units, but costs only metal and are built very fast.
They leave 100% reclaim - be sure to get everything back with constructors/reclaimers!
They are less units, more control-able projectiles.

T1: constructors, main force, outpost-siege, fighting for asteroids=reclaim, air supremacy. They are somehow disabled by strong EM effects during sun-storms (worse/less sensors and not commandable without mobile EM-shield support...)

T2: are immune to EM effects, but need a lot more energy and backbone economy to produce and maintain (energy stockpiled weapons, energy consuming abilities like shields and high-energy weapons).
They are only useable together with T0+1 and most of the times you only need 1 of each type at your army.
  • Support: mobile EM shields, area-jammers, mobile high-quality sensor array support, tac-nukes-interceptors, etc
  • Attrition: Impact-shielded fire platforms with slots for some T1, huge hero-units, etc.
  • Factory: Produces T0 units away from your base, has some reclaim/repair abilities.


T3-mod-option: If you can't win with T2+3, you retreat and reclaim some of your units to make one of these:
Silencer: Launcher costs a lot less compared to missile!. Now the enemy has to make anti everywhere or will lose his outposts and armies (guided/tracking missiles - everything else is dumb and redundant to Buzzsaw).
Buzzsaw: Static Anti-Outpost artillery, but not alone useable vs more upgraded HQ.
--- to be continued ---


Basically you can make this out of any mod, you just need to change some properties of units and write 2 gadgets (Asteroids, EM-effects/EM-shields).

I know, some parts look a bit messed up.
Will try to fix it when I am not as tired anymore.
Maybe some of you have some likes/dislikes or better ideas till then?
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Beherith
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by Beherith » 03 Dec 2013, 19:43

Oooh ooh, and I want a pony too!
No wait, I want a Unicorn. They are pretty easy to make, all you have to do is mate a narwhal and a horse.
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Anarchid
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by Anarchid » 03 Dec 2013, 22:23

Where can i find M-x neonstorm for my emacs? :P
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Silentwings
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by Silentwings » 03 Dec 2013, 22:49

I should be able to fly and make myself invisible
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SinbadEV
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by SinbadEV » 03 Dec 2013, 22:59

Silentwings wrote:I should be able to fly and make myself invisible
You're thinking of an Alicorn.
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 04 Dec 2013, 01:44

I want a zaku styled ona hole!
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zwzsg
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by zwzsg » 04 Dec 2013, 10:14

Speaking of Zakus, wasn't GundamRTS a Spring game with a fixed income per player?
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Pxtl
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by Pxtl » 04 Dec 2013, 16:38

Also conflict terra. And Kernel Panic, sort of.

Lots of SpringRTS games have linear or static growth. They just don't have *players*.
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 04 Dec 2013, 16:38

zwzsg wrote:Speaking of Zakus, wasn't GundamRTS a Spring game with a fixed income per player?
correct.
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NeonStorm
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by NeonStorm » 04 Dec 2013, 18:44

Lots of SpringRTS games have linear or static growth. They just don't have *players*.
Don't know GundamRTS well, but I prefer sci-fy-games with nice GFX to WW2 MGs and like neon-colors ;)
Afaik, Imperial Winter is beta and Conflict Terra has very simple units - like a 1990 game.

Linear growth can also be exponential, because the difference between your and your oponent's strength can growth exponential in aggressive games.

"Void" is a good idea, but has very few units and is too different from BA/TA or ZK to coop on most tasks (engine compatibility of widgets, gadgets, etc).
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 04 Dec 2013, 18:57

Google moddb gundam rts
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knorke
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by knorke » 04 Dec 2013, 19:36

Pxtl wrote:Also conflict terra. And Kernel Panic, sort of.

Lots of SpringRTS games have linear or static growth. They just don't have *players*.
In all RTS games (with resource gathering) you have the effect that you invest into eco and eventually you get more resources back then you invested. Then you again invest more and each time you have to wait less until you can do the next investment. If that is a fusion powering metalmakers or harvesters mining minerals is little difference. As I see it the eco growth is always exponential, in Conflict Terra too.
Difference is it than in same games the growth gets capped, for example the minerals run out. In CT meteors will spawn new minerals but you still have to move your harvesters and base around, during that many harvesters usually die etc.
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zwzsg
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by zwzsg » 04 Dec 2013, 20:15

NeonStorm wrote:Don't know GundamRTS well, but I prefer sci-fy-games with nice GFX to WW2 MGs and like neon-colors
Gundam is rather sci-fi. Anime sci-fi, but still sci-fi.

You're called NeonStorm but don't like neon colors? No but hello, what?
NeonStorm wrote:Linear growth can also be exponential
:shock:
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 04 Dec 2013, 20:19

I always thought buying more drones to harvest more resources was not increasing output but instead buying time at the cost of the resource.

exponential growth would be something like when metal makers come in or you can raise production by later building more efficient mohos once you have the budget? Resource gathering never gives higher yields/time. so to me it is a time/output/combat potential, balance sort of thing?
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 04 Dec 2013, 20:26

zwzsg wrote:
NeonStorm wrote:Don't know GundamRTS well, but I prefer sci-fy-games with nice GFX to WW2 MGs and like neon-colors
Gundam is rather sci-fi. Anime sci-fi, but still sci-fi.

You're called NeonStorm but don't like neon colors? No but hello, what?
To be fair, he came around sometime after I shut gundam down, and despite what people claimed, no one but me seemed really all that interested in it. But it had LOTS of bright colors. my next project ought to be strangely similar...
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Pxtl
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by Pxtl » 04 Dec 2013, 21:02

knorke wrote:
Pxtl wrote:Also conflict terra. And Kernel Panic, sort of.

Lots of SpringRTS games have linear or static growth. They just don't have *players*.
In all RTS games (with resource gathering) you have the effect that you invest into eco and eventually you get more resources back then you invested. Then you again invest more and each time you have to wait less until you can do the next investment. If that is a fusion powering metalmakers or harvesters mining minerals is little difference. As I see it the eco growth is always exponential, in Conflict Terra too.
Difference is it than in same games the growth gets capped, for example the minerals run out. In CT meteors will spawn new minerals but you still have to move your harvesters and base around, during that many harvesters usually die etc.
I think there's a pretty substantial difference between games that have a very low growth cap and the ones that have a super-high or non-existent one. I mean, while KP isn't a fixed income, your output of swarmers is strictly tied to the amount of terrain you've claimed, and your output of all other units is completely capped.

Exponential growth that hits a cap nearly instantly or is strictly tied to terrain-control is, imho, close enough to be called "not exponential".
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NeonStorm
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by NeonStorm » 05 Dec 2013, 16:48

@zwzsg
... and like neon-colors
You're called NeonStorm but don't like neon colors? No but hello, what?
... because the difference between your and your oponent's strength can growth exponential in aggressive games.
Read carefully! :evil:

@smoth
To be fair, he came around sometime after I shut gundam down, and despite what people claimed, no one but me seemed really all that interested in it. But it had LOTS of bright colors. my next project ought to be strangely similar...
Why :?: There is no static build before 94.1, is it worth to make a update of it (+ maybe add the newly developed widgets)?

@Pxtl
Exponential growth that hits a cap nearly instantly or is strictly tied to terrain-control is, imho, close enough to be called "not exponential".
Maybe we have different view of "exponential".

I think in 1v1 or team-games (not FFA) some difference between your and your enemies possibilities (army/investment) will grow exponential, not just by eco.

What I want is: You need constantly play better to increase the difference between you and your enemy.
Abusing the square law and steam-rolling should be a game-ending function (after 30-60 minutes).
Super game enders and counters (nuke, anti, buzzsaw, shields porc) should reduce the defense positions which can get hold against equal metal in offensive power to 3 or maybe 4
- and you need the right counters (anti-nukes or shields)

You need either more income (more reclaim) for more bases in late game (more reclaim squads, greater exposition to enemy scouts/ambushes) or snipe enemies/reclaim until you get the upper hand.

Defenses should require (5+)x the ammount of units to get killed. The battle happens on the field and against mobile reclaimers (remember the asteroids) for which you need scouts (detectors) - with air supremacy is the most efficient.
But if you find some enemy under-defended position you can try an ambush for reclaim - thus do not try to expand bases beyond what you can hold - defense needs to be everywhere, mobiles only somewhere.
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 05 Dec 2013, 17:51

NeonStorm wrote:@smoth
To be fair, he came around sometime after I shut gundam down, and despite what people claimed, no one but me seemed really all that interested in it. But it had LOTS of bright colors. my next project ought to be strangely similar...
Why :?: There is no static build before 94.1, is it worth to make a update of it (+ maybe add the newly developed widgets)?
because it had a gadget crashing bug(which could be triggered very on a very uncommon set of happenings) and was a release dating back to 2010. I was about to release 1.28 but rather than do that, I shut it down instead. You don't shut a project down by making a new release.

Features of the game(not all but here are a few)
  • Constant income - even if all your structures are gone you can accrue up to your max in the basic resource.
  • 3 resources - didn't use the spring resources at all
    • you can only get the other 2 by converting up. It is a tiered resources system
    • the resource conversion buildings can be destroyed
    • you cannot reclaim for more resources.
  • power system - every building required some power to run
  • Armor system - as in a real one, ex: weapons classed as explosive got a % boost vs buildings
  • limited experimental units - units that say you could only have one on the field at a time
  • cluster built units
  • units that come out the factory as more than one. Say like a tank, you build it, it comes out as 5 tanks.
  • construction unit waiting to build each structure, you can plonk down each building. However, they still have to do their nano frame.
  • (new to 1.28) an actual research tree, where you can progress based on your choice of units you want access to. You of course have to accrue tech points to move down this list.
1.28 was a doozy of a release to pass on and I am sure there are more things to detail but it doesn't matter as I killed the project.
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zwzsg
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by zwzsg » 05 Dec 2013, 18:27

I have some old version of GundamRTS + Spring engine for Windows that can be used for single player at: http://zwzsg.luckz.de/stuff/spring/installers/
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smoth
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Re: Want a game without exponential growth?

Post by smoth » 05 Dec 2013, 18:33

1.26 has an issue with a gadget crashing bug.
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