Next BA update and sequel?

[Nixa]

It's been 2 months, and we are waiting for a new update??? Are you even here TFC? or will you finally allow me to call my BA 2 - Balanced Annihilation 2* and move on from there. No point keeping the community stagnant for no good reason.

Put a crap load of work into it, alot of people in this community have and it's currently all going to waste simply because of a name

P.S. If you don't respond in the next week or so I'll take that is a no and I will release it and go from there

* or whatever

[Jazcash]

Does it even need an update? I agree there's lots of bugs that still need fixing in it but they've been there for years and I don't think they're ever gonna get fixed anyway.

[Niobium]

Does it even need an update? I agree there's lots of bugs that still need fixing in it but they've been there for years and I don't they're ever gonna get fixed anyway.

You answered your own question... There are updates to be done but no updater to be found.

[Jazcash]

Does it even need an update? I agree there's lots of bugs that still need fixing in it but they've been there for years and I don't they're ever gonna get fixed anyway.

You answered your own question... There are updates to be done but no updater to be found.

I meant Fatty won't fix these things, and last time I made a topic like this he appeared out of nowhere and made one update then left again. I've been saying BA needs an active dev for a long time but then, I've never really been that bothered because I think it's about time BA died now anyway.

[ginekolog]

There is not muxh to fix imo, most units are usefull and game is fun to play.

The most gamebreaking is sucky new engine pathfinder tbh.

[TheFatController]

There's no game breaking bugs aside from the Pathfinder which is an engine issue. Nixa and Niobium are a team on this matter so I'm taking the start of this thread with a massive grain of salt

You don't want to fix bugs in BA, you want to coopt it into your own mod by stealing the name and hoping players are too stupid to notice which is not moral and I expect the community won't stand for it. If you want your own *A mod then find a new name.

There is not muxh to fix imo, most units are usefull and game is fun to play.

The most gamebreaking is sucky new engine pathfinder tbh.

This.

If there are any game breaking bugs please list them and i'll update BA asap, if there's anything particularly cool that can be added or little things (like 'zomg crappy hover trans unloading!') these are lower priority and depend on community demand.

P.S. If you don't respond in the next week or so I'll take that is a no and I will release it and go from there

That's not how it works sorry

[TheFatController]

if there's anything particularly cool that can be added or little things (like 'zomg crappy hover trans unloading!') these are lower priority and depend on community demand.

There is also the fact that if you honestly want to help BA, then submit a patch via this forum or PM, i've had patches from several different people in the past which have gone into main BA.

[Jazcash]

Weird how you always appear whenever you're mentioned... And when I said bugs, I did mean bugs like hover trans being crap at unloading. There's lots of small bugs, if you like I could make a list...

[TheFatController]

Weird how you always appear whenever you're mentioned...

Cause I check this forum every day?

[smoth]

Make that list then FTC said to do so.

[Niobium]

There's no game breaking bugs aside from the Pathfinder which is an engine issue. Nixa and Niobium are a team on this matter so I'm taking the start of this thread with a massive grain of salt

You don't want to fix bugs in BA, you want to coopt it into your own mod by stealing the name and hoping players are too stupid to notice which is not moral and I expect the community won't stand for it. If you want your own *A mod then find a new name.

It is no secret that me and nixa wish to make a mod and have it be successful. However we are not going to do this through 'tricking' players and 'stealing' names, we have always followed your tough naming restrictions and even renamed the mod when you weren't 100% happy with it, and even now we still play nice with inquiries about future updates instead of using the lull to justify a takeover.

The reason for asking about future updates is that if there are no major updates planned by you, then why is it not OK to move onto a new major version series, v8.0, with new maintainers. Players could always return to the 'finished' v7.19 if it was preferred, and there would even be room for all your tiny tweaks in 7.20 to 7.99.

So why are we so keen on the name? Prior trials show that it is extremely hard for a new mod to take off, you saw it yourself in eternal annihilation, while players are very quick to update to new versions of 'Balanced Annihilation'. It is the difficulty in having a new mod take off that dissuades us from putting in all the initial effort required just to have it flop. You say you would accept patches yet you are hostile to the concept of BA changing, so again the same dissuasion exists, that patches made would be deemed 'un-BA'.

If there are any game breaking bugs please list them and i'll update BA asap, if there's anything particularly cool that can be added or little things (like 'zomg crappy hover trans unloading!') these are lower priority and depend on community demand.

What about the startposition bug that I PM'd you about over a month ago, you know, the one where peoples start position is ignored and they start in the center of the box? Yeah, that's still around.

Out of interest, how often do you play BA nowadays?

[Jazcash]

Ah now there's where I think most people would disagree. If BA is to have new maintainers, they should be like Fatty, just more enthusiastic about fixing small bugs and balance issues

The essence of BA should not be changed. I'm all for a version of BA with less effective combombs, base teching, porcing and the like, but I don't believe BA should be the testing platform for this.

If you want more players to play your game, market it.

[luckywaldo7]

So why are we so keen on the name? Prior trials show that it is extremely hard for a new mod to take off, you saw it yourself in eternal annihilation, while players are very quick to update to new versions of 'Balanced Annihilation'. It is the difficulty in having a new mod take off that dissuades us from putting in all the initial effort required just to have it flop.

Bingo! The popularity of a spring game isn't based on its own merits as much as it is based on brand recognition.

Which is precisely why TFC is so keen to keep it, and you guys are so keen to take it.

In the end though the only thing you guys can really do what everyone else does about the (un)popularity of their mod, which is "deal with it". Considering how many people around here have been doing tons of work for years, you are not likely to get too much sympathy.

[TheFatController]

The reason for asking about future updates is that if there are no major updates planned by you, then why is it not OK to move onto a new major version series, v8.0, with new maintainers. Players could always return to the 'finished' v7.19 if it was preferred, and there would even be room for all your tiny tweaks in 7.20 to 7.99.

I'll come back to this topic when I have more time but just to answer this one, the dilemma is that i'm sure there are more than one person/group who'd want to do this and surely the fairest way to decide who that would be is to let the community decide, and the community can already vote on this manner by moving to a different *A mod at which point the developer wont need the BA name anyway...

I know in practice this hasn't worked however

I'm honestly for people playing other mods, if anyone else can offer any wisdom around the area of branding or the above i'd like to hear it

[very_bad_soldier]

As a name, "Balanced Annihilation" is not even a good name. Without knowning the whole story you can already guess that it is about rivaling mod makers.

[Jazcash]

Tbh, Fatty doesn't even need to be replaced, just have a new dev work alongside him. My vote goes to vbs

[Niobium]

The reason for asking about future updates is that if there are no major updates planned by you, then why is it not OK to move onto a new major version series, v8.0, with new maintainers. Players could always return to the 'finished' v7.19 if it was preferred, and there would even be room for all your tiny tweaks in 7.20 to 7.99.

I'll come back to this topic when I have more time but just to answer this one, the dilemma is that i'm sure there are more than one person/group who'd want to do this and surely the fairest way to decide who that would be is to let the community decide, and the community can already vote on this manner by moving to a different *A mod at which point the developer wont need the BA name anyway...

A brief response: I agree. One of the big problems with the suggested v8-new-maintainers idea is that BA is one name, giving one shot for one group of maintainers. While there is no way any person or group could claim they are the best for the job.

A potential solution to this problem, as a substitute to varying independent mods, is to move BA in a more democratic direction. There are quite a few people who are interested in discussing ideas and putting the work into implementation, but as it is the BA-team consists of one person who believes BA is 'stable/finished'.

In my opinion it would be good if BA would move to a more open development system, where changes are discussed before implementation* and ideas that are agreed upon by the majority accepted into BA. This would satisfy the people who want a mod with their changes in it, but would require you to put your opinion that BA is 'stable/finished' at the same level as everyone elses.

*An example of a failure is in commandos, where a lot of work was put into something only to be quickly reverted due to being both imbalanced and based on a concept (comdrops) that the majority of the community dislike.

Note: This was typed at 5am so it probably isn't very thought out.

[Nixa]

The reason for asking about future updates is that if there are no major updates planned by you, then why is it not OK to move onto a new major version series, v8.0, with new maintainers. Players could always return to the 'finished' v7.19 if it was preferred, and there would even be room for all your tiny tweaks in 7.20 to 7.99.

I'll come back to this topic when I have more time but just to answer this one, the dilemma is that i'm sure there are more than one person/group who'd want to do this and surely the fairest way to decide who that would be is to let the community decide, and the community can already vote on this manner by moving to a different *A mod at which point the developer wont need the BA name anyway...

I know in practice this hasn't worked however

I'm honestly for people playing other mods, if anyone else can offer any wisdom around the area of branding or the above i'd like to hear it

Honestly I don't like the name either, but WE STILL WANT TO continue development of a mod that has the Balanced Annihilation CORE values. For those that like BA the way it is, it's not like we are going to remove the current version. Thing is atm the community is so small that a name really does matter, and I feel we will all be sitting here in 5 years time discussing the same issues whilst wondering why spring died out. Ironic that an open source development (sping - that alot of devs have put alot of work into) is largely influenced by one person and one name which sees very little change - the bottleneck of growth.

We don't ask for much considering this is open source really, as Nio said we have always followed any restrictions. But the level of work being done by us, and all the modders/writers is being wasted because of a name.

[TheFatController]

Maybe the main reason the Balanced Annihilation 'brand' is still going so strong is because of the very little change in the mod's design, and maybe the community doesn't want an evolving mod (case in point: the replies in http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23941).

You suggest (and I don't agree with this) that Spring would die if BA remains the same, but put BA in the wrong hands and players are likely to be driven off as they will not wait around to see if things get better if the mod becomes (in their opinion) unbalanced or unfun.

Edit: I also don't appreciate the personal angle you're taking with your arguments and casting me as some kind of lazy progress hating, spring destroying villain

[Nixa]

Maybe the main reason the Balanced Annihilation 'brand' is still going so strong is because of the very little change in the mod's design, and maybe the community doesn't want an evolving mod (case in point: the replies in http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23941).

Could be true, points never really been challenged when it comes to BA (well the AA -> BA was an evolution I guess). We both know the opinions on this forum share little in common with the greater community so are of little value (at least to me). My bet is that if a new version did arise and catch on in a years time they'd be making the same stance for the new version.

You suggest (and I don't agree with this) that Spring would die if BA remains the same, but put BA in the wrong hands and players are likely to be driven off as they will not wait around to see if things get better if the mod becomes (in their opinion) unbalanced or unfun.

Again true, and again not looking to take over BA just give BA 2 a chance to get played and explored

Edit: I also don't appreciate the personal angle you're taking with your arguments and casting me as some kind of lazy progress hating, spring destroying villain

Two things for this comment - a) Then fix the little bugs currently in BA and b) If you don't mind progress or trial whats wrong with letting Balanced Annihilation 2 (clearly different from 1) have a go under the Balanced Annihilation name tag?

At the end of the day, I have to wonder why in the 5 years or so why the spring community is about the same size as it was when I started. I honestly think BA has a big part to do with it being the overwhelming mod (after all the 1/10 people that like it stay and stick like rock hard fanboys and the other 9/10 leave spring altogether). So really targetting the other 9/10 players is what needs to be done for growth, and those 1/10 fanboys aren't going to let this happen without a fight.

And that's not personal TFC, just an observation