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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2013, 17:40 
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Joined: 06 Mar 2012, 18:22
ok, now i understand why norton hate this file(and the rest of nota)


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2013, 19:50 
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MasterZH wrote:
So i made few tests with Goli and Grayhounds today. I tested 1vs1 front to front fights. Conclusion:
Goli can kill Grayhound in 1vs1 fight = OK
Goli can kill 2 Grayhounds in 1vs2 fight = OK [40% HP left]
Goli can kill 2 Grayhounds in 1vs3 fight = wait wut?
Goli can kill 0 Grayhounds in 1vs4 fight = OK



I would try to prove this outcome a bit. But thanks for testing! Discussion about this is possible. After changes of armor of tanks in last releases (NOTA 1.67a) the balance was changed.

Important mark: skirmish anti-armor weapon should try to flank enemy tank with high armor. Face to face fight is simply bad use of that unit :).

http://nota.machys.net/goliath
http://nota.machys.net/greyhound

GREYHOUND -> GOLIATH

I count just this case, you can do the Goly -> 'Hound the same way.

  • As we can see from Greyhound railgun table, his dmg against basic types of ground units armors is 400.
  • Maximal health of Goliath is 3145.

Of course 3145/400 .= 8 shots (7.86) for kill is silly calculation. This situation happends only when Goliath attacked from +90° and - 90% flank.

We need to take in consideration other values - flankingBonuses - in case of golly, frontal armor change final dmg by multiplier 0.63 and rear armor change the dmg by multiplier 1.5.

  • Then, in your test, Greyhound was not attacking golly with dmg 400 per shot but with 400 * 0.63 = 252.
  • If Goliath is attacked from flanks, we said above its something around default 400 for each shot.
  • If you attack Goliath from behind, you dmg per shot increase 400 * 1.5 = 600.

So in different situations of fight we get different "minimal #shots for kill":

  • Frontal attack: 3145/252 .= 13 shots (12.48)
  • +90°, -90° flank: 3145/400 .= 8 shots (7.86)
  • Rear attack: 3145/600 .= 6 shots (5.24)

Thats huge difference! Tank armor in flanking concept is nothing cosmetic. Its mechanism with huge importance and cannot be ignored in such tests.

Ending marks

  • I would take in consideration the fact, that 2 Greyhounds each attack from different side means another disadvantage for Goliath's slow turning gun.
  • If you count with cheap bot spam for Goliath (fake aks targets), why you dont count with company for Greyhound at comparable price (own peewees, Toads,...)


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2013, 21:31 
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Quote:
[*] If you count with cheap bot spam for Goliath (fake aks targets), why you dont count with company for Greyhound


Because they have superior range and and if goliaths get "in their range" there is enough splash dmg for all hungry units. :twisted:

Quote:
Thats huge difference! Tank armor in flanking concept is nothing cosmetic. Its mechanism with huge importance and cannot be ignored in such tests.


Well i did count with such answer and yes that is way to use them properly, however good player always try to keep goliaths on line and together in most key location on map to hold and push. But as you know even on huge open maps there is not always space to flank enemy freely - limited with map border or other forces. Until you get such situation to go "round-round" you will be stuck in standoff chill battle always 13 shots per goliath. Same as grayh can stay whole game "just out of goli range" you can have any type of land support you like, like rocko, you will be still outranged with superior firepower and splash madness. I know arm has different tactic and those need to be used for great victory but in less optimal conditions(flanking) i see the price and buildtime for grayh just too much and bit unfair.


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 Post subject: Greyhound issue
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2013, 14:12 
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After many games with GH i need to rethink my opinion a bit. So few observations from my point of view.

1. If GH get critical mass sure they can "rule the world" and its not longer about numbers but tactic use on battlefield, maneuvers and micro.

2. Its almost impossible to use range advantage vs Fidos. Extreme mobility will prevent any point of GH reverse to stay out of range, 50 range gap is just too small to make any difference between those 2(means as range difference). However health+armor on GH is far more superior and including 3-4 times more dmg per shot make fidos almost useless.(depending on map of course)

3.Back to GH vs Goli thing. Unless you have 80x80km map with same numbers Goli will push you literally "to dead" rolling your base freely without stopping. Range advantage is nothing if enemy can just pwn you by continuously moving forward(open maps).

Again they have (almost) same cost, build speed so you get same numbers = total pwnage until you stop in middle of the battlefield to "chill-up" and get eaten.

Considering GH as closest and most powerful ARM counter-unit vs goli its seem like big disbalance. So i still think GH need small boost preserving all key tactics and features of this unit(as less powerful or "need to use brain instead brute force to win").


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 Post subject: Re: Greyhound issue
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2013, 16:19 
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MasterZH wrote:
1. If GH get critical mass sure they can "rule the world" and its not longer about numbers but tactic use on battlefield, maneuvers and micro.


To general statement, but yes, we can generaly say, Greyhound is unit which shows its quality in bigger numbers or with company of other units.

MasterZH wrote:
2. Its almost impossible to use range advantage vs Fidos. Extreme mobility will prevent any point of GH reverse to stay out of range, 50 range gap is just too small to make any difference between those 2(means as range difference). However health+armor on GH is far more superior and including 3-4 times more dmg per shot make fidos almost useless.(depending on map of course)


  • Fidos were not made as counterweapon for Greyhounds.
  • Greyhounds were are not made as counterweapon for Fidos.
  • So comparing those in fight has no sense. If you want to compare them, from main game mechanic "vehicles stronger bot weapons variants", yes, vehicle variant of anti-armor unit is stronger on flat land. Yes, on Tabula v2 middle plain has fido no practical use :).

MasterZH wrote:
3.Back to GH vs Goli thing. Unless you have 80x80km map with same numbers Goli will push you literally "to dead" rolling your base freely without stopping. Range advantage is nothing if enemy can just pwn you by continuously moving forward(open maps).


Here you get again to more general strategy thinking, not just Unit VS Unit comparation.
  • "continuously moving forward enemy" which we can mark as "Steamroller strategy" or style of play is situation, general choose of units and moves, which makes hard to use such units. The best example of such play was law[NOTA] which inspired other players like you, Pizza or danil_kalina. This style of play is brutaly effective (especialy on flat battlefield), ephasising low level thinking, auto-micro commanding, less strategic thinking, pushing main part of resources into ground forces, maximizing ground firepower. Against such enemy you trully cant use Greyhound as the only proper counterweapon. The best answer for this is air dominance (and Toadfoot hunter for killing Goliath, if you want ARM counterweapon, or Penetrator).
  • For "Steamroller" player enhancing any setting of Greyhounds just results in one thing - all steamrollers stop to use Goliath as T2 ultimate weapon and start to spam Greyhounds as another, new, ultimate tech which needs no thinking and just microing and slow neverenging moving forward and pushing enemy back :).

MasterZH wrote:
Again they have (almost) same cost, build speed so you get same numbers = total pwnage until you stop in middle of the battlefield to "chill-up" and get eaten.


True, if both sides knows just "Steamroller" style of play.

MasterZH wrote:
Considering GH as closest and most powerful ARM counter-unit vs goli its seem like big disbalance. So i still think GH need small boost preserving all key tactics and features of this unit(as less powerful or "need to use brain instead brute force to win").


Greyhound is good in combination with toad as i mentioned above. Yes, Goliath is bloody enemy (a lot HP, great armor, decent weapon and deadly in attack). Clever way how to fight with Goliath is not to kill Goliath first, but attack Goliath production facility and then hunt remaining Goliaths on battlefield and slowly grow your Greyhounds numbers.


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 Post subject: Re: Greyhound issue
PostPosted: 09 Aug 2013, 19:42 
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PepeAmpere wrote:
Fidos were...

Naahh sorry, whole fidos thing was just out of context. My bad.

PepeAmpere wrote:
For "Steamroller" player enhancing any setting of Greyhounds just results in one thing - all steamrollers stop to use Goliath as T2 ultimate weapon and start to spam Greyhounds as another, new, ultimate tech which needs no thinking and just microing and slow neverenging moving forward and pushing enemy back :).

What!? I fully understand how to use GH, also i never asked for any significant "enhancing" and you know goddamn well how is ARM meant to play. I made it clear that i "know" in last paragraph of my post.

PepeAmpere wrote:
Here you get again to more general strategy thinking, not just Unit VS Unit comparation.


We are not comparing cheeseburger with Aston Martin Vanquish. Correct me if i am wrong but isn't GH most clearly best and strongest counterweapon vs armored targets? Ok lets find the hardest/optimal armored enemy...hmm...what about....Goliath!

PepeAmpere wrote:
The best answer for this is air dominance (and Toadfoot hunter for killing Goliath, if you want ARM counterweapon, or Penetrator).

Do you want me to explain all general and advanced tactics used in NOTA together with conspiracy theories about WTTC or can we gently focus without adding every unit possible present on the battlefield?
No? Lets set the scene like this:
1.Both players are equally skilled and aware of faction tactic
2.Both playing opposed faction ARM-CORE
3.But SUDDENLY! Both players get airforce destroyed by unknown out-of-space radiation!
4.Both players already sent majority of spam and T1 to fight over distance hills
5.They have open flat battlefield between with equal numbers of 10GH and 10Goli and 10light bots infront of main force, no base defences, nukes, navy, EMP, snipers, T3, bugs, chicks, lags, drugs...
(still a better love story then Twilight )

Ok so we made it clear that those 2 units are meant to fight each other and who succeed will have open way to enemy base. So CORE player will try to get in range while ARM guy will try to flank and kill as many as possible without getting in range. He want to maximize dmg so he went around behind Golis. Nice! Well CORE player see it too and decide to let 6 golis slowly die while letting 4 golis continue to enemy base. Sure ARM player will slowly but surely kill them all but does he has enough time?
So if ARM player:
1. Try to avoid 6defending golis and catch those 4? Well CORE player will just merge forces together and continue rolling.(not so stupid to get carried away, as golis dont need to run, just turn front to front and keep close to those 4 nothing more)
2. Try to kill those 6 and then finish last 4. Let me check size of map... Nope, it will not take longer then 1min to get those 4 in ARM base.
3. ... ?
Now can we focus on how fast should grayhound kill goli or how many grayhounds its possible to build at the same time as golis? We dont want to change winner just wipe out that happy Jeremy Clarkson smile out of golis face.(sure we all die but still crush you hehehe :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: )
Image

PepeAmpere wrote:
Against such enemy you trully cant use Greyhound as the only proper counterweapon.

Uh just missed this sentence. So does it mean that if you decide to counter golis with GH and air you will win? They cost the same so if ARM player decide to split production there will be even more disadvantage on the ground but air will save him? Do you really think golis are so easy to kill? Core player can spam golis faster then you trying to do air and land!(and if you already invested in air and he make few aa? will you switch again? remember that SPAM is still going on!) In long term arm win. But in 1vs1 type of game (or situation) golis spam is just too easy to produce and push. Grayhounds lack stopping/cost/whatever power to make fair fight even with support. They deserve a bit bigger chance or i am missing some magical unit combo/strategy to prove me wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2013, 08:07 
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MasterZH wrote:
Correct me if i am wrong but isn't GH most clearly best and strongest counterweapon vs armored targets?

It does do full anti-armor damage, but the greyhound still has pretty poor damage potential, so I don't know if it's really the best choice versus a goliath steamroll strategy. You could try using penetrators? Though that would only be viable if you had good protection from air attack. Bulldogs do fairly well versus goliaths in a 1v1 scenario (bulldog's cannon is fully armor penetrating while goliaths only do ~55% damage to heavy). But that doesn't really translate to most game situations where the goliaths are embedded with kbots. But maybe producing a couple bulldogs could force him to build more storms and fewer thuds and goliaths.

Then again, maybe the best strategy really is to try to build up that critical mass of greyhounds as quickly as you can. If you can get there there's not much he can really do without switching tech. I don't know. Personally, I feel like going t2 kbot is usually the safer choice as Arm. Raptors + warriors are nice for swarming.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 22 Aug 2013, 17:07 
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Thor wrote:
Then again, maybe the best strategy really is to try to build up that critical mass of greyhounds as quickly as you can. If you can get there there's not much he can really do without switching tech.


Point is that Core player dont need to "care" just to "build that stuff" while ARM player need to "do magic fast". ARM player need to run to stay out of range while goliaths just "continue rolling" even when you get twice as many GH-numbers. If you have wrecks on battlefield those grayhounds weak shots will not even reach the target... You say critical mass, yes true but if he decide to "race too and produce as many as possible" you will never get enough numbers(cost the same/build the same speed). I love that you need to use flanking and other ARM tactic features but you are playing "literally" 2vs1. Maybe it supposed to be this way like you dont have any quick answer for "Dominator spam".(from arm)


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2013, 01:07 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
Yeah. Gaining critical mass and kiting. That is how I use Greyhounds.
There is basically no units that can catch greyhounds without dying. So my tactic is to keep the greyhounds firing all the time and let the Goliaths slowly push forward. Once the spam is dead you can push back the Goliaths and if they go too far you should be able to surround them, bomb the Goliaths or just wipe them out with combined forces.

MasterZH wrote:
...Maybe it supposed to be this way like you dont have any quick answer for "Dominator spam".(from arm)
The quick answer is always air. :P
Once you cant use air cost effectively against Dominators I guess you can use Oddities, mobile plasma cannons.
Or Raptors.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 07 Sep 2013, 01:43 
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In long paragraph above i think PoW forgot that Greyhound has own AA defence, which makes Greyhound user much more resistant to small air raids then user of Goliaths, which needs to make additional AA units.

----

PoW, to your hardly longly described examples, yes, we can generate many such situations and battle setups, where Goliath will be effectively fighting with his "so called, so aimed" counterweapon = Greyhound. 1v1 or 10v10 units battle comparation shows just one role/aspect of such units, as main battleline holders. Of course Goliath is much better for such role.

To start of this discussion, which was not maybe specified clearly and produce some misunderstanings: Primary counter-weapon for Goliath is Penetrator, Toadfoot, Flying Wing, primary but not the best is GH, too, secondary counter-weapons are EMP weapons, advanced arty, other anti-armor stuff, strategic bombardment of Goli production or simple air-dominance combined with any antiground plane.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 20 Sep 2013, 18:00 
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Testing NOTA 1.79a

  • In testing aim on tech1 robots and tanks (first part of spheres rebalancing) - change experience a lot
  • Many new UI features, but not polished yet.
  • New units still hidden

Stable release gets changelog, this is just for interested testers.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 26 Sep 2013, 12:45 
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Joined: 03 Jun 2010, 00:28
Btw there are devs (google) docs kind of public for NOTA community (including maintained bug list or devs plans). If interested, just ask me for a link.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 18 Oct 2013, 18:50 
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NOTA 1.79b -> c -> d -> e -> f -> g -> h > i
NOTA 1.79i

Still testing version, we have unstable release each 2 days, this is just milestone with most bad bugs fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 23 Oct 2013, 12:22 
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NOTA 1.79j - http://nota.googlecode.com/files/nota179j.sdz


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.76
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2013, 13:05 
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NOTA 1.79k - http://nota.googlecode.com/files/nota179k.sdz
NOTA 1.79l - http://nota.googlecode.com/files/nota179l.sdz

(fast shorcut of changelogs between these fast test builds you find on fb page, final changelog of stable version will be here)


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.80
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2013, 04:58 
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NOTA 1.80 is here to drain your brain power! :twisted:

Image

------------ CHANGELOG ---------------------

GENERAL
  • !! killed old global sphere change gadgets, just one global gadget now, as most as possible values set via UnitDefs
  • !! new spheres setup for features - if "_dead", it gets parent unit values, if "_heap", it gets low tile sphere
  • ! dead reclaim is linear now, no steps, units reclaim stay by steps
  • ! pop-up weapons now get 10x bigger damage resistance when folded then before
  • ! static and mobile antinukes, advanced metal makers and closeable factories of both sides gets 4x bigger damage resistance when closed, solars 2x bigger then before (=> 6x total)
  • ! all features get 5x more hitpoints
  • default burn time increased (450 -> 600)
  • lower resolution for LOS of all units, much lower for airplanes (anti LOS-draw-lag setting)
  • chain reaction killing of units in case of TeamCommDeath
  • + MT support enabled
  • + new icon for NOTA

AIR
  • ! all refuel times tripled
  • ! repair rate of airpads and carriers decreased by 75 % (800 -> 200) and airfields by 33 % (300 -> 200)
  • + Brawler back in game! with 66 % of its old fuel (180 -> 120), increased health by +2/3 (420 -> 660) and fly altitude +50 % (100 -> 150)
  • Lancet/Titan gets +40 % range for torpedoes (550 -> 770)
  • Phoenix gets another +12 bombs (+50 %, 24 -> 36), Hurricane gets +24 bombs (+100 %, 24 -> 48) but bigger spread (2000 -> 5000) and faster burst (.13 -> .0975), all bombs get +100 % area of effect (36 -> 72) and +33 % dmg (115/92/51 -> 153/122/68)
  • Black Lily gets one strong bomb instead of two weaker (dmg doubles, blast range doubles), better sound and blast effect
  • rest air-bombs has generaly 150% area of effect to compensate smaller hitspheres of targets and preserve old balance (Hellfish, Vashp, Wing, Centurion, Thunder, Shadow)
  • Tornado/Voodoo (seaplanes fighters) price decreased by 10 % (metal 191/186 -> 172/167, energy 6433/6654 -> 5790/5989)
  • Tornado/Voodoo and Hawk/Vamp get flares (salvo 1, reload 0.1, effeciency 0.7, delay 0.1)
  • Hawk/Vamp - HP lowered to 75 % (450/440 -> 338/330), stay stealth but cloak cost increased 4x (7 -> 28) and its default OFF
  • Angel accelaration lowered by 50 % (1 -> 0.5)

GROUND
  • Indian +20 % acceleration (0.018 -> 0.0216)
  • Indian -20 % (weaker) rear armor (1.6 -> 1.92 = 160% recieved dmg -> 192% recieved dmg)
  • Indian +10 % damage (340 -> 374)
  • Panther build time increased +15 % (4453 -> 5121 = 0:22 -> 0:25)
  • Bulldog +10 % fire range (500 -> 550) and bigger mass (2000 -> 2500)
  • Bulldog build time lowered on 75 % (14661 -> 10995), which means 73 -> 54 seconds with full resources income (35 for Indian, 42 for Goliath)
  • fat tanks (Reaper, Bulldog, Goliath) able to crush cheap tech1, Krogoth, Pod and Bug Queen are able to crush all tech1
  • Grayhound shoot range decreased (800 -> 675) and price decreased by 20 % (M: 577 -> 462, E: 3805 -> 3044)
  • Fido shoot range decreased (750 -> 625) and price decreased by 20 % (M: 308 -> 246, E: 3056 -> 2445)
  • Pod health increased by +50 % (8248 -> 12372)
  • Zeus and Panther energy weapon collide no more with allied units
  • Pyro, Zeus, Warrior, H.A.K. moved to Medium armor class where they should belong (from crazy places they were before)

SHIPS
  • Conquistador all weapons damage lowered -20 % (500 -> 400 for each)

DEFENCES
  • Viper (pop-up laser) added on buildlist of Tech2 Defence expansion
  • Splinter (core sabot transportable tower) damage increased (460 -> 690) and fixed basic default dmg

GAME FIXES
  • fix - true final reverse gadget fix and its spedup
  • fix - T1 transport was able to transport Penetrator
  • fix - increased mass of MARS to stop moving when heavy bombers are refueled
  • fix - moving dead features (hit by weapons)
  • fix - subs firing backwards, now shooting angle is 120°
  • fix - fuel lost when unit completed (+ engine fix managed from Spring 95.0+)
  • fix - toad VS commtower and some ships not firing
  • fix - Black Hydra laser killing friendly ships

GUI and WIDGETS
  • ToadFoot loopback attack now default ON, for rest stay defualt OFF, speedup of widget
  • + cmd_air_fly_default widget added, to satisfy Godde and Danil, all fighters and Toadfoot stay flying with no orders
  • + projectile lights widget for another Danil's satisfaction
  • + special healthbars above Boss units and MCs, big healthbar for bug Queen
  • + tank armor UI widget added
  • + new textures around minimap + 5 new view buttons
  • + primary target/cancel primary target commands added + new cursor
  • no autorepeat for shipyards
  • no ranks for all units with special healthbars
  • gfx - shockwave particle effect for flak removed
  • fix - players names above commanders and MCs again
  • fix + new look - customformations2 (thx to PixelOfDeath)
  • fix - stockpile widget work again
  • fix - rejoin progress widget killed

NOE
  • + new math functions for NOE
  • + added "noSpirit" for testing purposes in spirit library
  • + added support for spawning features in missions (updated spawner, mission data loader and unit pos exporter tool)
  • fix - for testing builds of engine
  • fix - NOE now reload mexmap and buildmap properly on notAmap

SPACEBUGS
  • ! huge NOE-like speed-up, which results in non-laggy gameplay even with engine 94.1, including late game
  • + buildpics for all spacebugs and their stuff
  • flying bugs again not "stealth", again visible on radar
  • Montro Gamma (basic flying bug) is able to load units
  • Montro Alpha (basic warrior bug) is able to reclaim, build, repair, etc.
  • Montro Alpha is able to climb all hills, its true bug now!
  • Crawler (Dust bug) crush strenght increased, crush almost all tech1 robots (50 -> 350)
  • Spacebugs Queen size and HP increased ~ +100 %
  • fix - dust cloud emitter cannot be attacked now
  • fix - Dust bug (Crawler) main weapon attack fixed
  • fix - chickends blocking big bugs in hive

KOTH
  • better game-end gadget with slow destroying of units of team which lost the game
  • fix - warrning messages for KOTH gong sounds

MISSIONS
  • startscript for Spacebugs singleplayer fixed
  • + NEW MISSION - xants-sort - added mission showing clever spacebugs sorting eggs (beta, demo)
  • + NEW MISSION - rom-a05 - Thor's mission on Thor's map (alpha)

SPRING ENGINE 95.0 UPDATE
  • + armors lualization
  • all colors off weapons converted into RGB notation
  • fix - cylinderTargetting -> cylinderTargeting
  • fix - old .builder, .isCommander,... tags replaced or removed
  • fix - backward compatibility of armors lualization

... any many tiny or hidden things
(like experimental gadgets, hero units, etc.)

---
1.79 -> 1.80 just sync re-relase (+ bug egg model)


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.80
PostPosted: 04 Dec 2013, 08:05 
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PepeAmpere wrote:
[*] chain reaction killing of units in case of TeamCommDeath

I like this!


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.80
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2013, 09:31 
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 03:49
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should nota 1.80 work with spring 95.0? I don't get any units spawning at start.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.80
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2013, 21:20 
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Same here. No starting units spawn in single player games, regardless if it's started from springlobby or from spring.exe directly.

NOTA 1.80, spring 95.0 on win7 64.


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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.80
PostPosted: 08 Dec 2013, 21:49 
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needs updating to 95.0 i think:
[f=0000000] Error: Lua LoadCode pcall error = 0, LuaRules/main.lua, error = 2, LuaRules/gadgets.lua, [string "LuaRules/gadgets.lua"]:821: attempt to index global 'CallInsMap' (a nil value)
:arrow:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=27777&p=547251#p547251


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