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 Post subject: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 05 Jan 2012, 23:58
 Kernel Panic Co-Developer

Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08
 Please give me a list of maps with the proper amount of metal, and the player count they best play at, so that I can plot map total metal vs player count, see what's the curve like, and find out the magic formula between.I asked Beherith how much metal maps should have and he told me the metal should be about (2m * 3 spots) per starting player, and an addition (2m * (2 to 4) spots) for each player's expanding. Or, more simply, 12m per player. But it felt very low when I tried that on my map. Then I checked on 1v1 maps and the metal amount didn't match, they had like 100 metal instead of 24. Since f(x)=k*x didn't fit, I tried with f(x)=a*x+b.Assuming Red Comet (100 metal total) is 1v1Assuming Frozen Fortress (170 metal total) is 8v8Assuming NOiZE, KaiserJ, and hunterw make well balanced maps.Approximating total metal expressed as function of player count by a linear expression.We have:a*2+b=100 and a*16+b=170 => a*(16-2)=70 => a=70/14=5 and so b=90The magic formula is:Total Metal = 5*Player Count + 90Now let's check this formula for inbetween.The formula predicts 4v4 maps should have 130 metal total.Tundra and Talus are 4v4 maps, they have 121 and 137 metal.Wee! I can finally balance my map metal wise!

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 02:23

Joined: 07 Feb 2005, 21:30
Location: Cheese factory
 Behe's is pretty low compared to what IceXuick said - 15 m per player.If you want a complete model maybe you should factor in if reclaimable features are present and also the impact of metal maker economy based on wind range.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 13:42
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 between 15 - 20m a player is a good guideline

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 14:21

Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 14:49
 There is no single formula. Maps can and should be different from each other.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 14:36
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ
 Johannes wrote:There is no single formula. Maps can and should be different from each other.bullshit. you guys don't want that.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 15:16
 Moderator

Joined: 12 Oct 2007, 08:24
 They can be different with limits. I think the functional parameters are reasonably non restrictive.The formula is fine for producing a metalmap that works but you need to do a bit more to make an interesting metalmap. A large factor is spot size and the proportion of metal that exists in the no-mans-land in the middle of a map.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 15:22

Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 14:49
 smoth wrote:Johannes wrote:There is no single formula. Maps can and should be different from each other.bullshit. you guys don't want that.who?

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 15:35
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ
 you guys.you don't want different metal layouts. either you want speed metal or fairly low metal. You don't want maps with lots of metal in features(TA) you don't like variable metal in mex spots(TA) you don't like varied metal spot placement. you guys want formulaic toast flavored metal spots. don't even act like you will play anything different to a significant level. too many maps I have seen derided for feature resource, inconsistent metal spot output, low concentration high output, you guys baw about that.you guys want the maps to be the same metal output per mex, you want the same amount of mexes you want NO variation between them.if a map isn't symetrical is is too unbalanced and people cry about that... as if most of you are even skilled enough for that to matter.Go make maps for 2 years or so you will find out why the mappers leave and we don't want to do anything different. It isn't us, it is you, the players.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 15:56
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 yeah, I PERSONALLY want standardish resource levels per map but very different terrain. if you fuck around with resources the careful game balance is usually broken.I have no problem with variation per spot where it is used to a purpose (eg. the super powerful spot in the middle of folsam dam). I have no problem with metal features where they are used in moderation (eg. a few hundred metal to boost a rush if you get a con to it first). Its when features and gimmicks are not used in moderation that players and maps have disagreements.and to clarify, any map being made here is targetted at the smaller part of the community that dosn't play BA DSD 8v8 exclusively, so dont make the mistake of attributing their idiotic oppinions to us (where 'us' is regular players who like lots of map variation).

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 16:06

Joined: 17 Sep 2010, 14:49
 1,5 years of making maps is not enough? My maps are relatively different from usual, at least some like Valley of Unrest, but criticisms I've seen are mostly focused on certain details (and I'm thankful for the input), not that the overall design is somehow too out there.Anyway, not everything that differs from the norm (whatever that norm is supposed to be), is good. Not all ideas will fit into every game. Takes experience with the specific game to know what can make for a good map, especially when it's not done following a certain tried and true pattern.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 16:37
 Moderator

Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02
Location: cheap kitchen

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 16:42
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 smoth wrote:Go make maps for 2 years or so you will find out why the mappers leave and we don't want to do anything different. It isn't us, it is you, the players.Imo many mappers leave because they have an unrealistic perception of their role in the scheme of things and lose heart when their maps are ignored by all. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else to make maps, and the community is not going to bow down to your superior artistic vision and immediately start playing it when you release one. The relationship is more akin to an inventor trying to push a new design of car onto the market, where he doesn't get paid in anything but the future satisfaction of seeing people driving his design of car. If the metal map is- I mean, if the engine has a tendency to stall, then obviously, people are going to be like WTFUCK and discard it almost immediately. It's the mappers responsibility to fully research and polish his map before releasing it- don't expect forgiveness.The only map of mine I see played is Bandit Plains, and even that only crops up occasionally. I consider that a creditable achievement considering just how many unplayed maps spring has.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 17:00
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ
 knorke:1)Quote:fairly low metal.2)Quote:either you want speed metal3) have metal in fields instead of spotsQuote:either you want speed metal4) have spots with different metal amount in the range of 0.5 to 5 (eg Terra, Falsom Dam)Quote:symetricalQuote:a) extractor radius too small to fit it over one spot/make t2 mex next to itb) spots that give vastly different amount of metal without this being visibleyour maps do a+b iirc.Go ahead and list them.knorke:"Mappers leave because everything that you can do with a heightmap & texture has been done by now. " not really. They leave because their time is wasted making anything new or updating anything. --be creative?just saying, we didn't have any maps with living features, ambient sound, real world based urban setting. I did that, it was a lot of work, was a waste of time. was hella creative to make that map, was a big fucking waste of time. 0 maps have used the features or lua that was developed for that map.WASTEofTIMEto do anything creative. Johan you have liek 2 threads here with 2 maps..

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 17:11
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 ^ if you mean gunmetal harbour, that map was marred by the super high metal per spot and metalmap, huge quantities of metal in reclaimable features and a map layout that played awfully in *A games.. it was a nice demonstration of what could be done but it was by no criteria a playable mainstream map.I'm more suprised kaisers tile made urban maps didn't take off, as those were attractive and playable

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 17:19
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ
 1v0ry_k1ng: That is the other problem, you guys just want a heightfield and metal map. Nothing more. Visuals of the map mean next to nothing. That is NOT the norm. I think people in this community have so many maps that they have become super picky.As far as polishing.. research.. ok so mappers make a map for 1 month. I have some that I have been revising for 3 years now. I have done all kinds of revisions and polish based on feedback from you guys.Metals spots are not like engines because not all games need them in the same way. It is closer to the lower assembly of a vehicle like 2/4 wheel drive or tire selection.What I see in spring players is wanting an ugly box shape with good gas mileage. I like muscle cars.-= kaiser's tileset=-spring map editor constantly hangs at random... so the tile set thing never took off .-=gunmetal harbor=-that map was marred by the super high metal per spot and metalmap:instead of 3 spots, each spot was that equivalent. You know that complaint people keep making about having to cap so many spots.. well that was the answer. The metal spot placement was chosen by sir arturri, one of the most popular mappers here. You guys didn't like that. huge quantities of metal in reclaimable features and a map layout that played awfully in *A gamesYou guys said "WE WANT URBAN MAPS" "WE ARE TA FANS" "BA IS TA"guess what, that played just fine in TA, I did EXACTLY what you guys asked for.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 17:38

Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
 They played well in OTA because the reclamation was discrete.

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 17:40
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 @smothso in other words, rather than analyzing demand and adapting the product, you made the product on the basis of what you thought people SHOULD want - then got cross when it didn't sell. Not saying it was wrong to put aesthetics before gameplay, but you shouldn't expect any other result.Quote:Metals spots are not like engines because not all games need them in the same way. It is closer to the lower assembly of a vehicle like 2/4 wheel drive or tire selection.As far as I know, all the mods that had/have any significant following (except KP) were designed to play on standard *A map metal layouts? Pure had a stupid, regressive spring-style metal layout dependany iirc, but that mod played terribly.. what else was there?@kaiser tiles, he did get ~3 maps released though, and nobody plays them.. I'll submit them to planet wars later 100%

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 18:24
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 19:06
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 smoth wrote:I have asked, TIME and TIME again for them to TELL ME DIRECTLY WHAT THEY WANT. I get bits and pieces and are required to interpret it. Don't blame me for the lack of data. Just like the remakes threads I did recently. I have asked to give me a metal map of what you want. I do not get it. Each time I have been given one I use it and do my best to learn from it. By all means cop an attitude and tell me I am cross. When it is I who KEEP ASKING and getting very little response then get told how much my maps such but with NO REAL solution submitted. THAT does leave me cross because you see, I am making the outreach you guys just ignore it then bitch at me for not listening to your obscure and UNCLEAR demands.I dont understand... your a clever guy, how long does it take to emulate the metal maps of popular maps? I did it in about 15 mins for my maps by copying a metal spot size/colour from comets metal map and pasting it where I had the metal spot texture, and likewise using the same the extractor radius - comet redux is the defenition of canon.I decided the quantity of metal spots on the assumption that if everyone takes the metal spots on their 50% of the map, each player will be getting 15-20m income in *A mods. if each spot gives ~2, thats 9 spots each, including the 3 around each players start. I try to break that into another set of 3 nearer the middle, and a scattering of 3 random ones. ofc some starts have 11m spots, and others 6-7. but thats a rough guide that can be followed.0% understand how you manage to make such a big deal out of it

 Post subject: Re: Metal Amount vs Player CountPosted: 06 Jan 2012, 19:41
 Content Developer

Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
Location: ModalitÃ
 I tried that, it seemed that each starting point would have 3 mex spots each. with expansion spots to drive player expansion and area importance in *A. So I did that for some time, people still hated it. even though I would consult with forb and other mappers as I went along(look at the version numbers on all my maps)..So then I decided well, if I am going to do a map, I better do a good solid map meeting a real UNIQUE request. "An Urban map," So I spent a great deal of time looking at ota maps. Spring needed a good amphibious map.. I had a design sitting around. At first I was going to do eastside westside since I had played around with that notion. Then I realized everyone would be all "herpaderpa, you just copied a ta map" so I went with my design and spent a month building the features needed. I then decided since people felt the maps were "dull" I would try and add atmosphere, sounds in the background exploding tanks and smokestacks.. I then said, this is an actually useful, unique map that spring people have been asking for. I used featureplacer to place 1000s of features taking days. I requested that Sir Arturri, one of the most respected mappers give me aa concept for the metal spots. I posted the map. People complained about the feature metal.. I halved it. rereleased. people still unhappy. I removed the large spots for smaller clusters, reduced it a bit more, rereleased.. people still hate it.david bowie wrote:I am exhausted from living up to your expectations of me That is why I am so vexed. Each time I have bent over every which way to do something new and creative.The lesson I have learned is what hunter said is right. you guys don't want new maps. you want more of the same. That is what he did. He gave you guys maps which were more of the same over and over again. You guys loved it. That is where I keep drawing on the idea that you guys don't want anything creative. I am not saying hunter was a bad mapper, I am saying he was more realistic with his perspective as a mapper.that is why I make a big deal of it.

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