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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 12:08 

Joined: 29 Oct 2008, 15:55
Jools wrote:
What would be the harm of including some mods (games) with the normal spring installer? I don't think Cavedog cares any more anyway that we use their models.



Maybe because the actual spring community has ~25% linux users? (from what I recall SL statistics had it at)
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 13:06 
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Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 21:12
Location: Never go full Retro-ard! You just don't do it.
Accept it that most consoletards dont even want to select a server or a favourite map. They want to hit one big button. The "Do everything, and make the GameStart Button. Who ever gets it there, makes it big and red, wins.

Todays joiners look like this. Singleplayer, were is singleplayer, so i can learn stuff. They dont find. (Okay some find the missions)
And then they ask.
And once the asked, they either get not answer, and quit after 5 mins of anger that they installed this "dead" game.
Or they get answers. By Guys like me, who tell them what fabolous options they have to get lost in the djungel.
So they leave.

Best would be a GamePlaceHolder. I join. I want to play Evo, but there is nobody there. So i sit lonly in that server, when i notice all those other games, going on. So i join one of them, but leave behind a placeholder.
I get entangled and insulted in some game of BAAAWWW, and suddenly my placeholder informs me that a second person willing to play Evo||Gundam||Cursed has joined my server.

Do you want to leave your current game? Shall your units be managed by a bot, if you choose to return, or be handed over to a teammember?
And go. Epic Win occurs.

//Way to many lobbymakers around, got to keep that folk busy.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 13:30 

Joined: 30 Jul 2010, 19:40
Truth

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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 15:24 
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Joined: 14 Sep 2004, 10:32
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smoth wrote:
Maybe because a lot of the open source guys are linux and many of the devs are? Why are we using GL instead of DIRECTX? I honestly can't say.


Because Spring was described by SJ as an OpenGL tutorial that got way waaaay out of hand.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 15:51 

Joined: 29 May 2005, 10:18
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
AF wrote:
smoth wrote:
Maybe because a lot of the open source guys are linux and many of the devs are? Why are we using GL instead of DIRECTX? I honestly can't say.
Because Spring was described by SJ as an OpenGL tutorial that got way waaaay out of hand.
Spring actually was a DirectX game. The tutorial SJ used was about DirectX.
It was changed to OpenGL when Spring was ported to Linux. For a very short time (weeks) we had two Spring engines, the "official" Windows version coded bij SJ and the Linux port. After I dragged SJ onto the Linux port mailing list this issue was resolved by dropping the Windows version and making the Linux version the official multi-platform version.
SJ went to work for Massive Entertainment some months later. Fnordia took over the lead dev role, then Jelmer and then Tobi.

I never got around to clear any legal stuff with the tutorial auteur. I did intent to do so back in the days.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 19:19 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
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==Troy== wrote:
Jools wrote:
Maybe because the actual spring community has ~25% linux users? (from what I recall SL statistics had it at)

Yes, but if we want to attract new users we have to look at our potential user base, not the existing. How could we have more mac users when the first mac build just came out? But that doesn't mean that there are mac people out there who could be potentially interested in spring.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 20:11 

Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 20:47
smoth wrote:
Maybe because a lot of the open source guys are linux and many of the devs are? Why are we using GL instead of DIRECTX? I honestly can't say.


I hear time and time again that OpenGL is better, and easier to code in than DIRECTX.

Unfortunatly ATI can't code drivers for shit.
Nvidia on the other hand are normaly all good.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 20:33 
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 08:51
in linux, if i want to play spring, i just open terminal and type "spring".
linux responds to me with its warm voice:
"did you mean:
[1] Spring Java Framework
[2] Spring RTS Game engine?
you have neither installed. would you like to change that?
please choose the software to install, and it will be done, or cancel."
i want 2 of course, stupid!!
........................................... *DING*!

why not use DirectX? why not use iPhone? why not implant chip with biometric data and your bank account stuff? why not eat dog-shit from the street?
i DO know!

installers are lame!
US ... something... all stupid!
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 20:38 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
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I'm not taking a stance on Linux really, although for me it sometimes feels complicated. OTOH, I admit that windows would feel complicated to someone who is new to it as well.

But my point was to advertise to the relevant customer segment. Sure, those browser based surveys aren't 100% reliable of the gaming people, so maybe Linux is more popular among them. And I'm sure that the developers of spring (or actually the PR and marketing department) are intelligent enough to think about who is a relevant customer. But sometimes it's good to remind also about trivial and basic things.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 20:47 

Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 20:47
hoijui wrote:
in linux, if i want to play spring, i just open terminal and type "spring".
linux responds to me with its warm voice:
"did you mean:
[1] Spring Java Framework
[2] Spring RTS Game engine?
you have neither installed. would you like to change that?
please choose the software to install, and it will be done, or cancel."
i want 2 of course, stupid!!
........................................... *DING*!

why not use DirectX? why not use iPhone? why not implant chip with biometric data and your bank account stuff? why not eat dog-shit from the street?
i DO know!

installers are lame!
US ... something... all stupid!



Sometimes Hoijui, you make very little sense.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 21:04 
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Joined: 13 Jan 2005, 00:46
hoijui wrote:
in linux, if i want to play spring, i just open terminal and type "spring".

you have downloaded spring... run spring

no maps or game..

CRICKETS.
se5a wrote:
I hear time and time again that OpenGL is better, and easier to code in than DIRECTX.

With all the driver problems that come with it, I am starting to think GL is harder. Sure if something is more difficult to use that is tough.. but if something outright WILL NOT WORK which is the case for spring on many systems..

hard =/= cannot.

With GL frequently it is cannot. You could blame the hardware manufacturers but really, do you own an electric car? I don't because I cannot recharge it easily.

Not that I am saying GL is bad, we have what we have an I will happily use it because spring = hard, no spring = cannot. I don't want to have no engine because writing an engine and all of the other stuff spring does.. that is DAMN HARD. So I am grateful for spring even if sometimes GL = cannotrun for some people.
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 21:17 
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Tim Blokdijk wrote:
AF wrote:
smoth wrote:
Maybe because a lot of the open source guys are linux and many of the devs are? Why are we using GL instead of DIRECTX? I honestly can't say.
Because Spring was described by SJ as an OpenGL tutorial that got way waaaay out of hand.
Spring actually was a DirectX game. The tutorial SJ used was about DirectX.
It was changed to OpenGL when Spring was ported to Linux. For a very short time (weeks) we had two Spring engines, the "official" Windows version coded bij SJ and the Linux port. After I dragged SJ onto the Linux port mailing list this issue was resolved by dropping the Windows version and making the Linux version the official multi-platform version.
SJ went to work for Massive Entertainment some months later. Fnordia took over the lead dev role, then Jelmer and then Tobi.

I never got around to clear any legal stuff with the tutorial auteur. I did intent to do so back in the days.


Spring was never a Direct X app, the notable changes when the linux port was made was that the SYs released builds from Visual Studio, and the switch to the common engine version meant a change to scons and mingw32 ( though it may not have been scons I dont remember that particularly well ). If you look at the very early source code for spring you can find direct references to the nehe GL tutorials where SJ never bothered to change certain things.

Do a forum search

You'll find quotes from Tobi Aegis and myself:

Tobi wrote:
Not just saying, the file containing the main() function (program entry point) was called Lesson2.cpp for a long time, with even some NeHe comments remaining
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 21:22 
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quarterly BA DLC: return to delta siege. includes green fields, comet catcher redux, small supreme battlefield and speedmetal. $17.50
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PostPosted: 16 Dec 2011, 21:54 
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download the new ba expansion and get access to the lvl1 construction KBOT.
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2011, 13:17 

Joined: 25 Nov 2010, 20:47
smoth wrote:
se5a wrote:
I hear time and time again that OpenGL is better, and easier to code in than DIRECTX.

With all the driver problems that come with it, I am starting to think GL is harder. Sure if something is more difficult to use that is tough.. but if something outright WILL NOT WORK which is the case for spring on many systems..

hard =/= cannot.

With GL frequently it is cannot. You could blame the hardware manufacturers but really, do you own an electric car? I don't because I cannot recharge it easily.

Not that I am saying GL is bad, we have what we have an I will happily use it because spring = hard, no spring = cannot. I don't want to have no engine because writing an engine and all of the other stuff spring does.. that is DAMN HARD. So I am grateful for spring even if sometimes GL = cannotrun for some people.


the other option is DX, but that's really windows only. so you'd end up needing to have two versions.
what I don't understand is why ATI keep refusing to properly suport Open GL. (or are they starting to wake up?)
I also don't know why people keep buying ATI cards, they've always had way more problematic drivers than nvidia. (remmeber way back when quake was THE engine to test graphic cards on? ATI wrote it's drivers to do extrodenarily well on this engine alone, but on anything else it was crap.) ok citation needed on that one, I remember reading about it a long while ago. that being said, I can name two dev teams off the top of my head that have flat out refused to suport ATI cards due to crappy drivers.

EDIT:
actualy I may have been a little harsh and inacurate on the 'refuse to suport' just a slight exaduration there....
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2011, 14:04 

Joined: 30 Jul 2010, 19:40
http://techreport.com/articles.x/3089/1 Quack 3!
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2011, 16:15 

Joined: 29 May 2005, 10:18
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
AF wrote:
Spring was never a Direct X app
I'm not sure.. I would have to dig up the source from that time.
Spring was not only a result of that tutorial. As I understand it SJ used the existing ta demo recorder as a base and TA demo was a DirectX application. You can still download the source from http://www.clan-sy.com/download/tademo/
But the 3DTA source that is also available from that page uses OpenGL so SJ was using both DirectX and OpenGL around that time.
Note that I got interested in Spring when SJ decided to release the source under the GPL, that was a little later. Never used the demo recorder or 3DTA.
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PostPosted: 17 Dec 2011, 17:18 
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Tim Blokdijk wrote:
Never used the demo recorder or 3DTA.

I did. I think I was a bit confused by the name, because it did much more than just record demos. It also allowed for new options, such as ally players and share los etc.

And that recorder had a possibility to rewind/fast-forward in demos, a capability that current spring is still missing. But tbh, I think each time I tried to rewind or FF the game crashed :)
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PostPosted: 19 Dec 2011, 10:31 
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Joined: 07 Feb 2005, 21:30
Location: Cheese factory
The next step is to get Google disinterested in Spring.

Springdroid and Springlets anyone?
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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2011, 01:43 

Joined: 09 Oct 2011, 19:08
its too bad spring is getting such good PR with an arsenal of admins and mods determined to kill it.
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