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 Post subject: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 17 Jun 2011, 12:57 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
In an effort to get the sea finally balanced, I and DNW started looking at the sonar units in xta. There is a complete link to the units here, as well as a comparison to ba units, feel free to add comments.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... y=CL6ZopkE

Some statistics:
    XTA 9.665, BA 7.50
    Number of units: 445, 370
    Has sonar: 65, 27
    %: 14.6, 7.3
    Average sonar radius: 191, 54

First of all, it is interesting that one mod should have so much more sonar, when the difference in sea units isn't that large (well, that's a relative statement). But okay, the difference is largely because of the huge sonars of some units in xta, such as the upgraded commanders and various lolunits. But there are still some interesting examples, consider for instance:

Sonar station: 1210
Adv. sonar station: 1550

(That's for arm.) Why is the advanced so little improvement?

But the most imbalancing thing in my opinion are the patrol and scout boats, they are so cheap, yet they have an ample sonar:

Vanguard/Viking: 400
Skeeter/searcher: 180/170

Then there is the commander: starting commander has 800 sonar, an upgraded commander has 1600, an advanced one has 2400, a battle commander has 2500 and the satellite comander has a whopping 6000 of sonar.

In BA the commander has a sonar of 300, it requires the player to construct more sonar planes and stations instead. I think that's better.

What do you think?
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2011, 09:51 
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58
Location: In Alaska Bridge to nowhere land.
Wow, I did not notice scouts ever had sonar that should be removed, and yes commanders sonar should be nerfed greatly, that and a buff to the glorious dgun so it can fire underwater.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2011, 17:04 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
I'd say less sonar means sub pen becomes harder to counter. But then again, the sub pen is the route of all evil!!1!
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2011, 08:01 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
I don't think the sub is such a big deal anyway, but underwater eco becomes more viable as it's harder to find.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 22 Jun 2011, 20:59 

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
Sub pen's evils:

Op underwater tidal
OP con subs
No cost efficient way for sea lab to raid mex in 1v1 (sub pen is ALWAYS the best option in wet map 1v1)
Retarded hp on minelayer sub

While the lab is not really as strong in a straight up unit vs unit confrontation, it is orders of magnitude stronger economically, to the point where you can just transition to another lab, even if it means reclaiming the sub pen after you made your sub cons and a couple of beavers.

I think sonar is of little importance compared to fundamental issues with that lab.

If you increase torpedo dps vs ships, please don't do the same with seaplane gunships, they have insano dps vs ships already, especially when you mass them and bonus shield comes into play.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 15:01 
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58
Location: In Alaska Bridge to nowhere land.
I actually wanted to address some of the issues.

Retarded hp on minelayer sub

It will be cut down as well as some hp on the construction sub.
Con subs already cost a lot, move slower, and build slower then the construction ship.
I am not sure about the cost of underwater tidal, they are generally effective 80 percent of the time due to the fact that there are floating metal makers which are very raidable.

Most players who build the Sub Pen rely heavily on their commanders for build power and to build E, which makes it somewhat risky if the enemy rushes viking vanguard. With that said, players who build shipyards have to worry about the silly scout raid. Sub Pen Raids are inefficient early game, often involving a sonar sub to reveal targets for kama subs. The only defense early game vs. scout boats are very slow crabes and garpikes with depth charges. But Expect a cost in Underwater Tidals because of the next thing.

Solar Collectors and LLTs will be amphibious, (removing floating llt, waste of build space) but solar collectors when attacked will submerse protecting it from air and surface weapons and allow boats to travel over, adding a new perspective to early raiding on sea that allows solars to hide from quick raids.

Once the economic gap is closed somewhat speaking, the next important thing will be closing the gap between combat. A fast submersible surface attack sub, slow underwater and a fast raider that attacks only when getting air time, weak but no AA option. Probably be able to kill a scout efficiently if it can sneak up on it while taking some damage.
Remove subs from shipyard and add a new boat with sonar, not a sub hunter, but perhaps a command ship like the aircraft carrier more oriented towards combat to give radar and sonar cover to make units more efficient in combat. It would sport fido or maverick like cannon with an anti air defense, short range defense laser, and torpedo for general purpose needs. It would also sport a special weapon that emits an emp every 20 seconds that will discharge mines and force them to decloak at no cost in a large radius.

But a majority of this will probably never happen unless it gets support or better ideas thrown out.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 15:02 
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58
Location: In Alaska Bridge to nowhere land.
I actually wanted to address some of the issues.

Retarded hp on minelayer sub

It will be cut down as well as some hp on the construction sub.
Con subs already cost a lot, move slower, and build slower then the construction ship.
I am not sure about the cost of underwater tidal, they are generally effective 80 percent of the time due to the fact that there are floating metal makers which are very raidable.

-----------Most players who build the Sub Pen rely heavily on their commanders for build power and to build E, which makes it somewhat risky if the enemy rushes viking vanguard. With that said, players who build shipyards have to worry about the silly scout raid. Sub Pen Raids are inefficient early game, often involving a sonar sub to reveal targets for kama subs. The only defense early game vs. scout boats are very slow crabes and garpikes with depth charges. But Expect a cost in Underwater Tidals because of the next thing.

-----------Solar Collectors and LLTs will be amphibious, (removing floating llt, waste of build space) solar collectors when attacked will submerse protecting it from air and surface weapons and allow boats to travel over, adding a new perspective to early raiding on sea that allows solars to hide from quick raids.

-----------Once the economic gap is closed somewhat speaking, the next important thing will be closing the gap between combat. A fast submersible surface attack sub, slow underwater and a fast raider that attacks only when getting air time, weak but no AA option. Probably be able to kill a scout efficiently if it can sneak up on it while taking some damage.

-----------Remove subs from shipyard and add a new boat with sonar, not a sub hunter, but perhaps a command ship like the aircraft carrier more oriented towards combat to give radar and sonar cover to make units more efficient in combat. It would sport fido or maverick like cannon with an anti air defense, short range defense laser, and torpedo for general purpose needs. It would also sport a special weapon that emits an emp every 20 seconds that will discharge mines and force them to decloak at no cost in a large radius.

But a majority of this will probably never happen unless it gets support or better ideas thrown out.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 17:14 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Quote:
Sub Pen Raids are inefficient early game,



????
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 18:01 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
Well, uw-tidals are kinda much better than normal tidals, but both of them do require a lot of energy to be built. Wind is usually better.

I'm not against sonars in general, just on so many T1 units, such as scout and patrol boat. This becomes a problem when you make uw fusions too, because for some 100:s of m you can have your whole eco ruined, as well as commander killed.

Patrol boats already rule the seas in every way, 2 or 3 of them can beat an advanced torpedo, which costs 1800 metal or so. That they also have sonar in addition makes them just too op.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 18:12 
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02
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Quote:
[water] solar collectors when attacked will submerse protecting it from air and surface weapons and allow boats to travel over
With the tidals, water already has a building that produces constant energy.
So at start you would just build some solars and then continue with whatever has higher output...
I think water windmills would make more sense because they are more different from tidals. (varying output, hp)

But why not just give the submerge ability to normal tidal (and remove uw tidal)?
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 23 Jun 2011, 20:02 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
I think the point is supposed to be tidals/wind are map dependent
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2011, 02:02 
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58
Location: In Alaska Bridge to nowhere land.
Quote:
Sub Pen Raids are inefficient early game,


A lot of players have problems making great use of kama subs babbles, your just so good. Its why you get banned. One torpedo defense will ruin your day as well.

What babbles said is the issue, map dependent resources, some have tidal at really low amounts as well as wind making sea hard to play. Tidal Generators are pretty fragile against scout raids.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2011, 13:41 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Noruas wrote:
A lot of players have problems making great use of kama subs babbles, your just so good. Its why you get banned. One torpedo defense will ruin your day as well.


2 kamikazes + sonar sub (my basic sub pen raid) > torp launcher
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2011, 16:31 
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Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
Noruas wrote:
A lot of players have problems making great use of kama subs babbles, your just so good. Its why you get banned. One torpedo defense will ruin your day as well.


Is babbles banned? Why? We have like 5 people playing xta ATM, we are not in a position to ban people. Or is that some classic english logic?

Most people fare better with patrol boats than with subs, including me I'd say. It's just too hard to manoeuver the subs, and one torpedo kills them. They also require a lot more micromanagement than patrol boats, so you can't concentrate on building eco at the same time.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 24 Jun 2011, 17:52 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Ironically, Finnish logic.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2011, 23:46 
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Joined: 08 Jun 2009, 16:59
Location: Croatistan
Now Barto is banning me from his games because I napped his com on The Cold Place with a transport ship.

This might be related to unblalanced sea, but IMO this ragebanning thing has to quit for the sake of XTA community. It's already too small, and it feels like a LAN party with a few randoms to fill the blanks.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2011, 17:57 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Barto doesn't read forums.
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2011, 18:56 
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006, 01:02
Location: cheap kitchen
babbles wrote:
Barto doesn't read forums.
oh :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieozENDs6-U
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2011, 22:19 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
knorke wrote:
babbles wrote:
Barto doesn't read forums.
oh :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieozENDs6-U



Tempted to add to XTA wiki page.

Come on take me awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay
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 Post subject: Re: Balancing the sea
PostPosted: 08 Jul 2011, 23:06 
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005, 02:58
Location: In Alaska Bridge to nowhere land.
Skip to 2:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9iu9VBBBq8
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