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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2011, 21:28 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
Digital art can be replicated at virtually no cost.

I understand the need for protecting ones work for commercial purposes (but don't agree with) in this capitalistic world. What really puzzles me is the desire to control/restrict others from using art that you (hypothetical artist) create as a hobby without commercial application.

I know there are people here that want others to ask permission from them to use their work.

My questions at these artists are:

Why do you want to be asked for permission when the art is already used for free in other non-commercial project(s) and you won't benefit from denying/allowing the use?
(if you do somehow benefit then explain how)

What do you think would happen if people didn't respect your desire?
(as in, what would you lose/gain/suffer etc., not the ones disrespecting it)

I would really appreciate if people could keep the discussion civil.
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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2011, 22:05 
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I wouldn't like to see my art 'abused' (like the spherebot that was turned into 10 different units).

I think many people who want you to ask permission just want to know who uses it. I never really released anything because I work on a closed project and all my attention goes to that, but if I would release something for free I personally just would want to know if people use it, and who those people are, how many, etc.
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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2011, 22:38 
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With that topic title, I doubt your commitment to civility.

Well, the content I produce reflects upon me, both personally and professionally. What it reflects is, in part, determined by how it is presented, thus I would like either a measure of control or at least a measure of awareness in regards to use.

If I'm on record against a particular use, whether or not I can prevent it, this can help me undercut whatever negative consequences the use may have. Of course, if my work is well used and I speak out against it, that can hurt me. See Alan Moore and the film treatment of V For Vendetta.

Lastly, communication in itself has value. Just speaking to me about using my work provides me with some recognition and makes it seem that both the work and my stance in regards to it are valued. If I and my efforts are valued, I'm more likely to continue them.

If people don't respect my desires, then perhaps I'll produce less for them, or cease to work with them at all. If their use proves to be worthy or interesting, then I'll probably benefit, and provided I recognize that, I'll probably work with them in future. There is always something to be learned from disagreement.

These days, I mostly want to know where my work is, and ensure that I am duly credited. These desires are, in part, why Spring sees so little of my creative work at this point. I feel right now I cannot give my work away when so much is on the line, and at the same time I don't want to share incomplete or limited products - that wouldn't be fair to my peers.
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PostPosted: 05 Apr 2011, 23:10 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
Neddie wrote:
With that topic title, I doubt your commitment to civility.

I am open to suggestions, I thought it was a descriptive way to communicate what this thread was about. Words are too easily misinterpreted, your prejudice is unfair.

Neddie wrote:
I feel right now I cannot give my work away when so much is on the line

What do you mean by this?
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 00:59 
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Regret wrote:
Digital art can be replicated at virtually no cost.
But it's creation is a great deal of effort for some.

Regret wrote:
I understand the need for protecting ones work for commercial purposes (but don't agree with) in this capitalistic world. What really puzzles me is the desire to control/restrict others from using art that you (hypothetical artist) create as a hobby without commercial application.
Because they are taking the identity of your art work. Say there was an engine with oh, 3-5 games all using the same artwork. Many people would be confused as the visual identity is shared by several games. Add to it these games are all the same genre and have a remarkably similar economy, build system and share the same map. It means your game looses all visual identity and becomes one of the pack.

As for me? The control of an image is the exact reason why gundam's art is strictly closed source. Because while it may be ok for me to make models in the likeness of Bandai's work, it is not ok for me to re-license it. In fact it is because I want to respect the image of gundam that I try so hard to replicate the art, models and feel so much. Also, I can personally tell you that if I was doing an independent project and had my own ip. I would not share it at all because of the spring community's belief that they are entitled to it. I do not like feeling used or taken for granted.

However, it is well known that the engine devs have commanded my hand when they needed it(islands in war, purple versions of the team color textures) so I respectfully give back to them. IF that wasn't enough, I have contributed skyboxes, models, textures, particles effects and configs, unit scripts, lua and I help other content developers where I can with odds and ends. So if I did create something and never wanted to share it, I think I have earned that much.

Regret wrote:
I know there are people here that want others to ask permission from them to use their work.
Some ask it as a courtesy, like as a mild condition so they can be aware of what is using their work. Kinda cool to see how others may utilize it.

Regret wrote:
Why do you want to be asked for permission when the art is already used for free in other non-commercial project(s) and you won't benefit from denying/allowing the use?
(if you do somehow benefit then explain how)
See earlier explanation about visual identity.

Regret wrote:
What do you think would happen if people didn't respect your desire?
(as in, what would you lose/gain/suffer etc., not the ones disrespecting it)
because people WOULD disrespect it, use it in kitbashes that destroy what artistic merit it would have.

Regret wrote:
I would really appreciate if people could keep the discussion civil.
heh, when you start it with this:
Quote:
Artistic sense of entitlement
Not the best foot forward as it comes off that they are some how not entitled after making the effort to make such a creation.

You would understand this if you gave up years of your spare time to work that others feel that they should outright have. Whether or not the work can be easily duplicated it is about the artist who spent the time to slavishly create said work. I personally think you all took lathan way for granted and there have been other artists to be sure.

If this sounds confrontational it is not meant to, I am just busy and don't have time to smooth out any rough edges on the above post.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 01:22 

Joined: 18 Aug 2007, 18:04
smoth wrote:
Not the best foot forward as it comes off that they are some how not entitled after making the effort to make such a creation.

smoth wrote:
If this sounds confrontational it is not meant to

The title is not meant to be confrontational either. But I see that this is an extremely touchy subject, hence why I won't respond to actual content of answers to the questions I asked. Thanks for the answers so far.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 01:27 
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no prob, hopefully the answers between them can give you some idea as to the sentiments of the artists. I don't feel the thread was directed at me but tried to answer as though it was.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 01:30 
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Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 13:08
I can see two motives:

1) The fear that someone else gets the credits that you deserve.

2) The fear that someone will ruin the nice vision that you created by twisting and mixing your work into some horrible broken monstruosity.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 02:23 

Joined: 17 Sep 2008, 03:36
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All you really need Regret is to look at the criticisms directed toward CA/ZK. A lot of people dislike how the game is a bit of a mashup of different art styles that result from art sharing and collaboration.

Personally I think it is a beautiful thing, where some other people see mish-mash I see individuality and character, but most people don't think that way*. I think it is completely reasonable for artists to want to protect their work from this.




*-puts on hipster glasses-
Did I mention I use linux and listen to indie bands?
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 02:32 

Joined: 03 Dec 2009, 05:47
well the reasons for commercial reason to protect your work is very obvious...the wallet of course


but i have my own theory why the people might want to ip something that they get no money out of

they probibly take alot of pride in their work, it is something done purly out of shear passion...and if they did not have the emotional motive to do so they would not have done so to begin with.........and all the people here relate to and respect each other knowing legal action would probibly never happen

i doubt smoth(or whoever) would drop 5 grand or something for a lawyer to sue you for useing his models
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 02:58 
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I too have hipster glasses and listen to indie bands...

Anyway I can only speak for myself. My higher senses say I don't care if people use whatever I make for whatever they want. But at heart, I found I am very shallow and greedy person. I learned this when forb "stole" my height map to make his "A House Divided". That made me so angry for no good reason. So maybe it's being shallow, seems to be the case for me anyway. :evil:
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 03:20 
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nightcold wrote:
they probibly take alot of pride in their work, it is something done purly out of shear passion



maybe pride is strong word but its also true. i was very happy when someone asked me to let him use one of my models 'outside' spring. i would probably rage if ive seen it somewhere without my name under it. also, manners !
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 04:11 
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@Smoth - I think Spring's community has only run roughshod over the OTA unit makers like TRO, and that's because packs like TAUIP and AA gave them the impression that OTA units were free to take.

Look at EE. Fanger constantly up and vanished in his near-complete project and so he constantly faced people begging for the rights to his work. Everybody asked. They may not have asked politely, but they asked.

Anybody ever stolen your units? Argh's? KDR's?

Occaisionally somebody makes a hideous Frankestein mod and they're quickly pilloried.

Some confusion is to be expected when the most popular project is pirate content. I think the Spring behaves admirably in spite of this.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 04:31 
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I, personally, allow anybody to make use of my publicly released work in any way that they see fit, with the only provision that they tell me about it.

Why is this?
Well, there are several reasons. Here is one of the most prominent:

When you create something, you put some of your life into it. It sounds sappy, but that's exactly what spending 30 hours hunched over a computer is. So, for a lot of people (me included), their art and projects are like quasi-children. Artists like to know there "children" end up. So they ask that people tell them before doing things with their work.


Plus, if any of my stuff ends up being used somewhere really cool, I want to know so that I can brag to all my friends about it! :P
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 05:25 
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zwzsg wrote:
I can see two motives:

1) The fear that someone else gets the credits that you deserve.

2) The fear that someone will ruin the nice vision that you created by twisting and mixing your work into some horrible broken monstruosity.

I think this sums it up most accurately. I don't really feel there are any significant offshoots to these two points on the side of the argument you are defending.

Quote:
1) The fear that someone else gets the credits that you deserve.

The question has to be asked, what credit do you deserve? You can use any work you do in a portfolio later, you can create whatever you want to create with it, if someone uses your seed to grow a better plant than you can grow, why do you deserve more credit than they do? Isn't what they did equally or more valuable?

Quote:
2) The fear that someone will ruin the nice vision that you created by twisting and mixing your work into some horrible broken monstruosity.

So, you will be blamed for work you did not do? This is the opposite extreme to the other point. If you won't get credit you 'deserve' why would you assume you will get blame you 'don't deserve'? In either case, I think you are reasonably protected by your status as the artist/author of the derived from work that if either claim is brought up you can sufficiently address it.

To me, honestly, both of these stances fall into grey area selfishness. Not to say it's the type of selfishness that someone who steals his friends money because it was left lying around, but the kind of selfishness of someone who could be giving money to charity but chooses not to. Not wrong so much, but sort of intentionally not good. Both stances are betting on the failure of the community, weather global or local, to use your contribution either responsibly or positively, and honestly, to me, it's kind of the same bet as the creepy old guy who watches his neighbors coming home from work suspiciously as if they are doing something illicate. Not all people are good, but betting on the innate evil of society is a self fulfilling prophesy and I think incredibly destructive to society as a whole.

[edit] I'll add, if someone really wanted to steal your work for a hideous frankenstine mod, you really have no recourse. Sure we can ban them from the forums until they successfully smurf and fool us, but it's not like you can really successfully sue them. None of us are Blizzard. Ultimately you're not that protected even by "protecting" yourself.

[edit2] the Gundam situation is a little different, because if someone does come in and make something that shits all over it, it could potentially cause Bandia to look unfavorably on all related spring projects by association, which is a bit more scary than someone using your super original tank model for Springpoop mod V0.9999.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 06:35 

Joined: 03 Dec 2009, 05:47
SwiftSpear wrote:

[edit2] the Gundam situation is a little different, because if someone does come in and make something that shits all over it, it could potentially cause Bandia to look unfavorably on all related spring projects by association, which is a bit more scary than someone using your super original tank model for Springpoop mod V0.9999.


personaly i dont think ur argument is valid, imo gundam's gameplay is far from perfect...i personaly i have a huge beef with the gameplay philosophy of mods like Gundam, Ca/Zk, and BA have ....the reality is that Bandia would never do shit, even if smoth turned gundam in to some inappropriate porno mod or something and made them look rlly bad(if they did they would actually give spring a popularity bost becasue of all coverage spring would get)


(2 restate my point)
i belive that the people here are emotionaly attached to thier work because it was done out of passion...and the reason they dont take without permission is that they are able to relate to each other's emotional bond to their work...people who do take without permission are people who have not put much effort into thier work(yet)

this has nothing to do with the "selfishness" everyone seems to dissolve everything to(god, the modern generations are just so hopeless and cynical, ...it seems they offer them selves to exploitation/capitalism...i blame today's social narratives)

shame FF stoped being developed..... :/
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 07:13 
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oksnoop2 wrote:
I too have hipster glasses and listen to indie bands...

Anyway I can only speak for myself. My higher senses say I don't care if people use whatever I make for whatever they want. But at heart, I found I am very shallow and greedy person. I learned this when forb "stole" my height map to make his "A House Divided". That made me so angry for no good reason. So maybe it's being shallow, seems to be the case for me anyway. :evil:



You have a lot of Nerve saying that I "Stole" it. I drew something semi similar. And I quote:

Forboding Angel wrote:
That's because it is :-) Your heightmap gave me some ideas for a neat 3way ffa map. So I drew something fairly similar (tho nowhere near as complex. For running somethign through l3dt I use very basic drawings of heightmaps, and l3dt does all the hard work). So in all technicality, you get credit for the original idea. :mrgreen:

The original:
Image
Attachment:
housedivided originalhm.jpg


The result (after some photoshopping of the original output)
Image
Attachment:
height.png


Neat huh? I take my l3dt heightmap generation settings to the grave with me :lol:

The funny thing is, with l3dt's generation, the less information you give it, the better your result can be. Totally backwards, but awesome at the same time (I hear that you can get similar results with simplicity in world machine).


Snoop, you should probably know that I have done over 170+ maps for this engine. I could easily say that many of the hms used were ripoffs of my hms.


Last edited by Forboding Angel on 06 Apr 2011, 08:27, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 07:19 
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Snoop Ripped off Canyons:

Image

And Evergreenhaven:

Image


See what I mean?
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 08:13 
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I think the quote markers were there for a reason Forb. I'm assuming he thought you stole it at the time, but doesn't feel that way any more.
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PostPosted: 06 Apr 2011, 08:15 
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I don't believe fear is the sole motivator, zwzsg and Swift. But otherwise, we've said much the same thing.

Regret wrote:
Neddie wrote:
With that topic title, I doubt your commitment to civility.

I am open to suggestions, I thought it was a descriptive way to communicate what this thread was about. Words are too easily misinterpreted, your prejudice is unfair.

Neddie wrote:
I feel right now I cannot give my work away when so much is on the line

What do you mean by this?


It isn't a matter of prejudice, just as the topic isn't a matter of entitlement. Words are all you have to represent yourself, and while the semantic gap is inescapable it will not excuse pejorative phrasing.

I can't afford to do work for free, beyond the time I allot for Spring moderation and a few personal projects. The job market is inhospitable, I don't have the luxury of job security or a living wage for my region. My efforts have to be focused on acquiring the basics, developing alternative revenue streams, and hopefully finding a good position.
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