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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 02:39 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
Thor wrote:
thelawenforcer wrote:
can we buff sea aa a bit plz, torpedo planes are really dominating these days.


do you have any replays?
Attachment:
File comment: 2v2. Vistritium dropped after a little while. Destroyers vs destroyers supported by torpedo bombers on both sides. DORK had some effective torpedo dodging, dodging like 2-4 torpedoes in the first runs. In total I don't know how many torps that were dogdged.
20101205_170930_Small Supreme Islands V2_0.82.6.sdf [489.21 KiB]
Downloaded 22 times

In this battle we both supported our destroyers with torpedo bombers. Dork did some good early torpedo dogding.

Torpedo bombers rarely die against ships without flak so its easier to build up a large torpedo bomber force now.
In order to make your ships survive against torpedo bombers better you can zick zack against the torpedo bombers.
Patrol boats, Mandau blades, are almost immune to torpedo bombers if microed correctly.
Excalibur, light arm destroyer can also dodge torpedoes quite well while core and arm heavy destroyer are respectively abit worse but still capable to decrease the number of hits taken.
Larger ships are unlikely to dodge torpedoes but it is more likely that the damage gets spread among nearby ships if you zick zack against the torpedo bombers.

I say it's possible to keep your ships alive against torpedo bombers but it requires the correct micro. Having some support in the form of fighters or hover AA means that the enemy lose more torpedo bombers which prevents him from using them unless he is ready to take some extra losses.

Even if you know that the enemy can micro his ships to dodge torpedo bombers you can use them as a tool to force the enemy to drive against your ships or force fleeing destroyers to turn.

The correct micro counter to torpedo bombers, when you are protecting a big ship, is to send your destroyers and hover AA against the incoming torpedo bombers while you send the big ship in the other direction. If the enemy chooses to attack your destroyers you can dodge quite alot of torpedoes and if he proceeds to attack the big ship, the torpedo bombers will take heavy losses from flak, missiles and AA machine guns and you are also likely to soak up some torpedoes with your destroyers reducing the damage against the big ship even more.

Law thinks this kind of gamemechanic, when you are forced to zick zack against the torpedo bombers, is stupid.

The combination, of dodging torpedoes and better AA in the previous NOTA versions, made torpedo bombers quite ineffective in high level games.

That is my 2 cents about torpedo bombers vs ships.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 04:17 
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006, 10:26
Thanks Godde, for the thorough analysis.

It seems like Core should be less vulnerable to torpedo planes than arm, considering that their destroyer is fairly maneuverable while also having flak.

Godde wrote:
Law thinks this kind of gamemechanic, when you are forced to zick zack against the torpedo bombers, is stupid

And what do you think?
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 18:40 

Joined: 07 Dec 2010, 18:27
Hello! I would like to know how do i install NOTA on ubuntu 10.10. the downloadable .sd7 file doesn`t seem to work, gives me an error message:"Could not create the archive

Archive type not supported."
and i don`t know what to do
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 19:19 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
veghmester wrote:
Hello! I would like to know how do i install NOTA on ubuntu 10.10. the downloadable .sd7 file doesn`t seem to work, gives me an error message:"Could not create the archive

Archive type not supported."
and i don`t know what to do

I don't know when that message comes up.
Have you installed spring?
The .sd7 file is supposed to be in the mods folder in your spring folder.
If you haven't installed spring you can either search for spring in ubuntu software center http://springrts.com/wiki/Ubuntu_install.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 19:38 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
Thor wrote:
Godde wrote:
Law thinks this kind of gamemechanic, when you are forced to zick zack against the torpedo bombers, is stupid

And what do you think?
thelawenforcer, in old reply about torpedo bombers missing, wrote:
then wouldnt it be a case of if u see torps it would guarantee that u would lose the targetted ship.

now im all for torps being changed cos atm torps do alot of damage but u tend to lose them all and also they can miss alot. making them cheaper and miss less would make them too strong tho. So making them easier to build, and easier to not get them all killed but they should do less damage in that case.


Okey... LAW liked this gamemechanic before. He just don't like having to drive his ships into the enemy ships when the torpedo bombers come I guess :P.
I think that this gamemechanic is interesting but if torpedo bombers are too good I don't know. Torpedo bombers might be the best support for ships right now as they can force the enemy to go against your own ships or otherwise do alot of damage.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 20:22 

Joined: 07 Dec 2010, 18:27
I don't know when that message comes up.
Have you installed spring?
The .sd7 file is supposed to be in the mods folder in your spring folder.
If you haven't installed spring you can either search for spring in ubuntu software center http://springrts.com/wiki/Ubuntu_install.[/quote]

I have spring installed and updated, even if i had to force it due to some authentication problems, and i think i tried to make new folder in spring, but it didn`t let me do so
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 07 Dec 2010, 23:50 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
veghmester wrote:
I have spring installed and updated, even if i had to force it due to some authentication problems, and i think i tried to make new folder in spring, but it didn`t let me do so

You can run springlobby and write "/j #sy" without the quotes in the chat. That will make you join the sy channel. Some developers there can help you troubleshoot your problems.


Last edited by Godde on 10 Dec 2010, 12:01, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 09 Dec 2010, 11:36 
Spring Developer

Joined: 31 May 2009, 23:08
NOTA is a Game, not a Mod! ;-)
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 10 Dec 2010, 23:49 

Joined: 20 Nov 2008, 18:00
It seems to me that alot of the sea gameplay depends on torp bombers these days. lets face it, the torps deal a shit load of damage... microing a destroyer against torpedo bombers is certainly feasible, but what im finding the most annoying is that once you get a big ship out (say a cruiser or missile cruiser) it instantly gets torpedo'd (you cant micro those...) because you simply cant get enough aa out at a reasonable cost.

i think the changes also exacerbate the arm vs core divide, core simply dont have anything that can stand up to arm at the moment... imo, it would have been better to give core the heavy destroyer (fits in more with the core philosophy aswell) and arm the light attack ship...

my POV is that torpedo bombers should be handy for a) giving support, not dealing the majority of the damage or b) picking off vulnerable and isolated ships.

i find goddes contention that torpedo planes are not that useful in high level games is entirely wrong.

the fact that you cannot micro high value ships against torpedo planes means you have one choice, either you shield your HVS with your lower level ships or you simply lose it. It effectively means that going for some kind of high value ship is actually a bad idea, because it you will have less AA first of all, and protecting your ship will cost you even more of that AA... sea games should not be all about who can get the most destroyers (which are the only ships that have even the slightest chance of defending against the torp bombers)

nota to me has always been a game of strategy, having the dominant tactic requiring a hugely situational micro counter (you have to be moving towards the torp planes) seems to be out of sync with the rest of the game.

godde seems to imply that torp planes are the best because they give some kind of positional advantage, but he seems to dismiss the fact that they are dealing huge amounts of almost unanswerable damage aswell...

dont get me wrong, i dont want this to seem like sour grapes, but to me nota has always been the spring game with the best strategic and tactical implications but the sea gameplay is kind of lacking at the moment because torpedo bombers essentially cut off many previously viable options simply because they would then become impossible to defend against.

in the demo godde links and in almost every other sea game ive played, there are either very few or no capital ships, or the game revolves around who can kill whos capital ships with torpedo bombers. compare that to the many epic navy vs navy sea games ive played in the past and you can easily spot the deterioration in the quality of games...

That said, i simply dont have much time to play anymore (time sapping job :| ) so if people like it the way it is, go ahead and keep it that way but i think there was alot more potential for different tactics beforehand and games would generally be more interesting and less one dimensional.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2010, 03:13 
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 03:49
Location: Sydney, Australia
you can defend against torpedo bombers with fighters.
also, AA ships are not bad.

--

The main thing that annoys me about NOTA sea battles is the way it is so easy to lock another player out of the sea forever.

If you rush a sub and get it to the enemy shipyard and destroy it before they can get anything completed, you've pretty much won the game as you can just fill their region with subs and they can't build anything there.

The only way to get out of this lock is with Torpedo + Sonar planes and sonar planes only come in at T2 air, by which time the game would probably be pretty much over.

Anti Submarine Hovers are useless as they have no sonar, giving them a short range sonar would help.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 11 Dec 2010, 11:42 

Joined: 20 Nov 2008, 18:00
Fighters kill planes eventually, but its usually too late, they will have launched their torpedos. Aa ships are ok, but in the time it takes to make a navy that requires one to protect it, they will have made so many torp planes that it will essentially be useless. They can also snipe your Aa ship without incurring huge losses making your entire fleet vulnerable.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2010, 03:40 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
thelawenforcer wrote:
i find goddes contention that torpedo planes are not that useful in high level games is entirely wrong.
Godde wrote:
The combination, of dodging torpedoes and better AA in the previous NOTA versions, made torpedo bombers quite ineffective in high level games.
I meant in the previous NOTA versions where destroyers had more Flak.

thelawenforcer wrote:
my POV is that torpedo bombers should be handy for a) giving support, not dealing the majority of the damage or b) picking off vulnerable and isolated ships.
In my opinion you can't win the sea with just torpedo bombers. Torpedo bombers are best used in conjunction with your fleet as the destroyers can kill fighters and force enemy hover AA away. Currently I think that torpedo bombers are the best support for ships as they can snipe high valauble targets, harass lone ships and force the enemy where you want them. If you focus alot on torpedo bombers you can depend on thoose somewhat to kill larger ships instead of getting yourself heavier ships.
When you force the enemy back so that he can't manouver you can use your torpedo bombers very effectively.
thelawenforcer wrote:
b) picking off vulnerable and isolated ships.
Currently I don't think that torpedo bombers for cost could be good at picking off lone destroyers because you can dodge quite alot of torpedoes and what other ships are isolated?

Disabling the lead on torpedo bombers could be interesting aswell. Then you would be able to dogde torpedoes by going sideways instead of going against the torpedoes. Then you would be forced to send in the torpedo bombers from the sides exposing them to fighters and other AA more.

Fighters should propably be set on low altitude when used against torpedo bombers so that they don't have to swoop down to attack.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2010, 07:38 

Joined: 03 Dec 2009, 05:47
thesleepless wrote:
The main thing that annoys me about NOTA sea battles is the way it is so easy to lock another player out of the sea forever.



wronge, it is very simple actually...i have done it many times

after you lose sea-

step one: secure you cost with costals asap
step two: anti sub hovers, clear out his subs and cons...
you got a shot at sea now - you can now start building ships...sometimes the enemy stops investing metal in sea after they win sea

i would also like to re-adress the thud problem and y the kbot counter lieing in arty is a diaster
...i belive i adressed some of th problems with arty be4(my objections where much diffrent tha law's), but godde brought but how nurfing arty might drasticly diminsh thier role...well i think that the arty should only be used as long range harasmet unit that pounds away from a safe location....they are far too cheap and efective atm(dmg & splash)...they should treated much more value(cost more/easier to kill)...
-also, thuds are too good at stacking, reload time should decrease as well as health range and dmg....peewee should be much stonger....i'am not saying that peewees should totaly replace thuds, i think that they should be a balanced alternative to thuds...anyways thuds/kbot are soo good at what they do that cant rlly flank them...core's anti-kbot vec needs a boost in build speed and arm needs a anti-kbot vec

i think that we need some variety in unit selection....nota is very cookie cutter when it come to this(look at sea man)...we need more units doing the same/similar roles...each one should be somewhat better at doing somethings than the others...
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2010, 13:16 
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007, 03:49
Location: Sydney, Australia
nightcold wrote:
wronge, it is very simple actually...i have done it many times

after you lose sea-

step one: secure you cost with costals asap
step two: anti sub hovers, clear out his subs and cons...
you got a shot at sea now - you can now start building ships...sometimes the enemy stops investing metal in sea after they win sea


But the anti sub hovers are useless without sonar since they can't see the submarine enemies, you can only use direct control and blind fire and hope you hit something
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2010, 13:58 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
thesleepless wrote:
nightcold wrote:
wronge, it is very simple actually...i have done it many times

after you lose sea-

step one: secure you cost with costals asap
step two: anti sub hovers, clear out his subs and cons...
you got a shot at sea now - you can now start building ships...sometimes the enemy stops investing metal in sea after they win sea


But the anti sub hovers are useless without sonar since they can't see the submarine enemies, you can only use direct control and blind fire and hope you hit something
Personally I prefer to use sonar stations and torpedo launchers. Build a sonar to see incoming subs and then make a torpedo launcher if you see an incoming sub.
If a sub is killing what you build in the water just build your torpedo launcher somewhere else.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2010, 15:04 
Spring Developer
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Joined: 22 Sep 2007, 08:51
please.. learn2rapid and get your stuff there as it ough to be. if you don't know how to do something, ask someone of the other 10 mod makers that seem to know.
it's not like i am asking you to spend days working on something, and it would make your mod usable by casual players and autohosts.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 24 Dec 2010, 01:59 

Joined: 14 Nov 2007, 08:22
When did anti-sub hovers lose their sonar? I remember they had sonar, it was just that its range was exactly equal to the torpedoes so you didn't see the sonar circle when you selected one because it overlapped with the torpedo range circle.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 25 Dec 2010, 18:09 

Joined: 29 Mar 2010, 16:54
Totbuae wrote:
When did anti-sub hovers lose their sonar? I remember they had sonar, it was just that its range was exactly equal to the torpedoes so you didn't see the sonar circle when you selected one because it overlapped with the torpedo range circle.
They still got the SonarDistance tag but no sonar.
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 31 Dec 2010, 23:42 
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Joined: 29 Aug 2009, 13:44
Happy new year for nota fans :D 8)
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 Post subject: Re: NOTA 1.634
PostPosted: 03 Jan 2011, 06:42 
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Joined: 05 Mar 2006, 10:26
antisub hovers should have sonar. I'm not sure how that would've been changed.
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