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 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 14:30

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
 So you have all this analysis of comparing stats and drawing drastic conclusions but dont know how the damage for unit you talk of is calculated?Amazing.Look up areaofeffect on wiki...

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 14:32

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 pintle wrote:And without accounting for AOE and impulse, statistical analysis of that weapon is completely meaningless.I am being quite ridiculous, because this discussion is ridiculous to me: core arti is self evidently not underpowered.You just proved that my analysis is flawed a little, but in fact haven't proved that the arti is not underpowered.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 14:35

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 JohannesH wrote:So you have all this analysis of comparing stats and drawing drastic conclusions but dont know how the damage for unit you talk of is calculated?Amazing.Look up areaofeffect on wiki...The damage per second is probably self-explaining measure?How do you think?

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 14:42

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
 I don't have to prove it is balanced, you have to prove it is not balanced. If you want to come in here and break the game I have been playing for 5 years, you better have an extremely convincing case. What you have right now is broken statistics, and a lot of extrapolation.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 14:52

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 pintle wrote:I don't have to prove it is balanced, you have to prove it is not balanced. If you want to come in here and break the game I have been playing for 5 years, you better have an extremely convincing case. What you have right now is broken statistics, and a lot of extrapolation.I also played this game few years, last time probably 1 year ago, and I have given some evidence in real stats: DPS, accuracy, velocity of the unit. All this seems to be below the similar arm unit (luger) per unit of resource. So, to me it seems that the unit is underpowered, also some other people think similarly. To what degree it is underpowered could be best checked experimentally. So I hope that our discussion would be taken into account by the mode developers.And I have no more time to continue this flame war.Also in a view of these my flawed analysis that didn't include area of the effect. For bombarding fat units, the area of which is bigger than 10*10 or 12*12=144 (in case of core arti weapon area of effect) like buildings and tanks, the area of weapon affect is not very significant in increasing the probability of hitting. In this limiting case, I think, my analysis is close to the reality, and arti sucks.But when you bombard a swarm of tiny units, then the twice bigger area of effect of arty could kill more units than that of luger, and here they seems to be equal in power (per unit of spent metal).So, this depends.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 18:04

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
 step wrote:pintle wrote:I don't have to prove it is balanced, you have to prove it is not balanced. If you want to come in here and break the game I have been playing for 5 years, you better have an extremely convincing case. What you have right now is broken statistics, and a lot of extrapolation.[Wall of text][No overall conclusion]So what are you saying? It depends on circumstance...?

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 18:22

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 babbles wrote:step wrote:pintle wrote:I don't have to prove it is balanced, you have to prove it is not balanced. If you want to come in here and break the game I have been playing for 5 years, you better have an extremely convincing case. What you have right now is broken statistics, and a lot of extrapolation.[Wall of text][No overall conclusion]So what are you saying? It depends on circumstance...?Looks like. When you have swarm of l1 units tightly packed, then arti could kill more of them in one shot because of bigger area of effect, and in one second two lugers make same damage as arti. But if you aim swarm of tanks, then you will probably hit only one tank at time, and then two lugers will do twice more damage than one arti per one second. Something like that.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 18:55

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
 So you're saying if I send 10 peewees at your 2 lugers, they'll all die in 2 shots?Right, ok.Also, I reckon 2 lugers world do worse against a reaper than a core arty.Espcially if both have radar and radar targetting

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 19:22

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
 step wrote:babbles wrote:step wrote:[Wall of text][No overall conclusion]So what are you saying? It depends on circumstance...?Looks like. When you have swarm of l1 units tightly packed, then arti could kill more of them in one shot because of bigger area of effect, and in one second two lugers make same damage as arti. But if you aim swarm of tanks, then you will probably hit only one tank at time, and then two lugers will do twice more damage than one arti per one second. Something like that.Ok maybe youre right. Now just provide a few replays of UP core arti ruining games and I'm right with you.I might also add that xta t1 scouts are annoyingly good they piss me off every time i play xta, its so impossible to play a fast expanding style

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 19:23

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
 Double post Last edited by babbles on 04 May 2010, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 19:24

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
 JohannesH wrote:I might also add that xta t1 scouts are annoyingly good they piss me off every time i play xta, its so impossible to play a fast expanding styleYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYES

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 04 May 2010, 20:19
 Supreme Annihilation Maintainer

Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55
 babbles wrote:JohannesH wrote:I might also add that xta t1 scouts are annoyingly good they piss me off every time i play xta, its so impossible to play a fast expanding styleYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESL2P

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 00:08

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
 Gota wrote:babbles wrote:JohannesH wrote:I might also add that xta t1 scouts are annoyingly good they piss me off every time i play xta, its so impossible to play a fast expanding styleYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESYESL2P I would have to side with Gota, not convinced they are necessarily op, although I have in the past suggested the be made more like BA/SA scouts (less hp/dps/cost, and faster) and I do still think that would be a positive change. I would like to reiterate however that I'm not sure they are OP, despite how unforgiving they can make the game.... tbh I think the reason JohannesH, and many other players who learned BA before playing XTA a lot, find scout cars so brutal has a lot more to do with the cost/role of llt, and indeed early/mid game defence in general, than the scouts themselves.Well done Step! You are getting closer to considering all variables in your hypothetical scenario. Next up, consider projectile speeds, and how they affect accuracy vs these groups of moving small units. After that you can bring us a table illustrating the various mass values of both arm and core units, and elaborate for us on how arm as a faction are fundamentally more vulnerable to aoe/impulse weapons, and how that should be integrated with your artillery statistics.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 01:11

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
 Its not OP, it doesnt break the game. Both sides can make scouts and have decent countermeasures against scout raids. You're just forced to expand slower than I'd prefer, but someone else probably prefers it this way (even if they hate getting ganked by scouts) with slower growth.Main thing is I think that you really cant defend vs scouts with turrets but neither with your own scouts - when con has lower hp than scout, so you can kill con with 1 scout even if there was 2 scouts defending it. On maps with lower mexes killing mexes when giving scout wrecks in return might be questionable (though mexes you only need to look at) but killing a con is always worth to sacrifice a scout for. Really hard to expand in another direction than where your army is. You kinda need a bunch of slow units to defend from fast ones.And main cost of the scouts is very energy/time intensive, so its great thing to make when youre behind on expansion (ie. often m stalling) in that respect as well.Then another thing is, that when scouts are so expensive and deadly you cant use them just for scouting a position as much, it needs to deal some damage to justify the investment.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 01:19

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
 they kill samsonsgg

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 07:32
 Supreme Annihilation Maintainer

Joined: 11 Jan 2008, 16:55
 Yo...raiding in XTA...

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 09:51

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 Ok. One more post to explain what I meant before, about the arti.I clearly see two limiting cases that depend on the size of the target.1. Area that the target occupy is small compared to AreaOfEffect of arti, i.e. the target may be regarded as a point and the weapon should cover that point by a circle of AreaOfEffect area to hit it (the case of bombarding pewee). Then the hitting probability is proportional to the AreaOfEffect and average damage. Thus, for two units, it is proportional to DPS * AreaOfEffect :140*144 = 20160 for arti, and178*64 = 11392 for luger.Thus we can see that the two lugers are almost the same as one arti. This is probably, how the two units were balanced automatically.2. Second case deals with high area are targets like l2 lab. In this case the hitting probability is roughly proportional to the area of the target, since now the weapon effect is like randomly putting a point, and you hit target when it is inside a big circle (which is t2 lab, for example). Thus the average damage is proportional to DPS * AreaOfTarget, and since AreaOfTarget is the same for two targets but the arti has twice smaller DPS, it is twise less efficient than two lugers.What will happen when the target size is between the the lab and pewee? Then the arti is less effective than two lugers by a factor between 1.0 and 2.0 depending on the target size. So it sucks at average 1.5 times more, compared to two lugers, which is better than sucking twice I thought before. Impulse effect is not included, but the fat tanks don't fly anyway.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 11:26
 Map Creator

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
 step wrote:Thus, for two units, it is proportional to DPS * AreaOfEffect :140*144 = 20160 for arti, and178*64 = 11392 for luger.Thus we can see that the two lugers are almost the same as one arti. This is probably, how the two units were balanced automatically.a 144 radius explosion has a horizontal suface area of 65111 eloa 64 radius explosion has a horizontal suface area of 12861 elocore arti blast coves more 5x the area than luger weapon, all aboard the noob schoolbus

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 11:30

Joined: 30 Apr 2010, 13:06
 1v0ry_k1ng wrote:step wrote:Thus, for two units, it is proportional to DPS * AreaOfEffect :140*144 = 20160 for arti, and178*64 = 11392 for luger.Thus we can see that the two lugers are almost the same as one arti. This is probably, how the two units were balanced automatically.a 144 radius explosion has a horizontal suface area of 65111 eloa 64 radius explosion has a horizontal suface area of 12861 elocore arti blast coves more 5x the area than luger weapon, all aboard the noob schoolbusHi. But why then the variable AreaOfEffect has word Area? But not Radius? If it is radius, then the variable should be named RadiusOfEffect. Also some units in game has weapon range ~ 200, so then the arti blow, calculated by your formula, should be probably so incredibly wide, but as I remember it is not.Anyway it is better to see the source of the game.

 Post subject: Re: Least used units?Posted: 05 May 2010, 17:07
 A.N.T.S. Developer

Joined: 26 Sep 2009, 20:26
Location: Ukraine
 U could probably nerf scouts a little bit, but its nice to have a unit that is still useful to actually attack in late game. Thats why the scouts are available on t2 kbot labs (and also the mouse lol)

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