Lets make a seperate topic about this.



I agree on this samson/slasher issue. They are a bit too strong. (note a BIT) In team games going all in slasher spam is allmost compulsary. However, i dont think XTA should be balanced to suit team games, team balance comes second to compatitive 1v1.
In 1v1 games slasher you see far less slasher spam. Flash/gator are the weopon of choice most of the time.

To start with id sugest a small reduction of hp and maybe los. This would make them more funarable to raiders/stumpys without harming there AA capabilitys.

if tmo is right, why didnt spammed the ppl crasher-lines in the past time, maybe increase the hp of thuds/hammer to counter them better

Somebody actually compare dps/hp for cost.

And take into account you can fit almost 2x the number of kbots as you can veh into the same space= much much more effective dps.

Kbots can also turn and retreat much better, facilitating much easier com push micro.

You also get more bots faster (I'm pretty sure), and since gaining critical mass is absolutely key to winning via mass missile units, this factor should not be overlooked either.

I have never found them too powerful, except in the context of puny flash tanks.

I think cost should be related to physical size (corresponds more or less to metal expenditure), but not to dps. Dps should be should be related to weapon type, which is indirectlky related to hp as well, because heavier units can carry heavier weapons. But not a direct relationship between dps and cost.

The harder to manufacture the weapon, the higher the cost.

Weapon cost is a hole system, but "theorically" assiging part of the metal and energy cost to the dps or effectiveness of the weapon is a good imaginery.

In my taste, the higher damage the weapon, the higher in energy cost (at buildtime) it shall require.

As this is not analized nor written anywhere, (that i know), and its a hard, controversial and highly theoretical/Fictional issue, its up to the good eye and experience of the ones managing the mod.


Blah appart.



This.... while true... im reluctant to accept as a valid thing.




that means, you can fit 83.8% samsons in the space of 1 crasher.

thats 16.2% less samsons.

thats odd as the footprint is 50% bigger. (2x2 vs 3x3).

Jethro vs Samson
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... arm_samson

Sad this does not compare weapon damages.



weapon DPS 18 vs 19.52 +5.5%

so does cost 16% more metal, and does 5.5% more damage...

but as 1 crasher = 83.8% samsons, you should get an effective dps of = 16.36 DPS. vs an equally longer crasher line. (effectively 90.9% damage).

With +4.2% hp.. but that must be converted too. so, you get 628.5 HP in the same length of space than a crasher.

About production, samsons get to produce 19% faster.


Without taking space into account, you would still get
+5.5% damage
+4.2% HP (9.1% in slashers case)
(in 81% of the time of your opponent... given resources... not sure how this influences the game, it has to do with metal richness...).



The picture is of 10 jethros/samsons, in flat terrain.

This is... an usual setup if you really want to missile push.
Its an ideal number of units. I wouldnt produce more than 10 for compushing purposes... although at times this happens (but its hard to repair them).

While the arguments and differences are true, you see that the amount of space is ... not a big issue (for a normal compush).


Samson vs Slasher
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... re_slasher

worth noting, slasher has +9.1% HP than crasher.
Jethro/crasher, have minimal diferences but hp.


Unmanaged testing, shows.

samsons win 98% with 3 4 or 5 units still alive (4 usually)

Unmanaged testing, with repeat repairing commanders, shows

samsons win 100% with 7 or 8 units still alive (7 usually)
(ofc babbles can dgun all your samson and your base, build an llt in your commanders head, nuke you no matter where you are, fly a jethro past your defense lines with his dgun, and still have time to dance his skeeters)


And seems... samsons repairs faster? odd.

omg, look at this:
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=i ... =xtapev955
rank 184 and 185

Las value is complex, its:
h/m * dps (damage/s) = h*d/ms
but, h = hp.... damage = -(hp)?????

think this is wrong.
it tells which unit does more damage and... gives more hp per metal.

Feel the love XD

Nothing odd with that, its buildtime is 2135 compared to jethros 2631, and it has a bit more hp too.

Yes, i just realized that the other day.

Not sure if repair time fits BT in all cases....

If the BT if smaller and the HP bigger, the repair speed must be noticeable faster. Can someone calculate that?

repair time = build time.

So hp repair speed is hp/bt. Multiply by comms bp to get hp healed in second.

crasher repair speed: 0.273 [hp/BT] x 120.2 [BT/s] = 32.89 [hp/s] (by commander)
crasher repair speed: 0.351 [hp/BT] x 120.2 [BT/s] = 42.22 [hp/s] (by commander)

28% faster repair speed.

I think this lone factor would give samsons the victory, even with old damage. given a repairing commander.

Will make some tests with old xta.

Ive tested with xta 8.1 pe.

I this version, jethroes and slashers are the same, in stats, except the weapon.

jethros has 36 damage, with 2 reloadtime, = 18 DPS
Slasher has 36 damage, with 2.1 reloadtime= 17.14 DPS
(this seems finetuned.).


Unmanaged testing, shows. (xta8.1)

Jethroes win 100% of the times, with 3 units still alive

Unmanaged testing, with repeat repairing commanders, shows

samsons win 100% of the times with 6, 7 or 8 units still alive (6 usually)


So, in this case, we have crashers wining if they fight an equal number of samsons, without the aid of a commander.

Adding a repairing commander to the equation, turns the odds towards the samsons, that end up beating the jethroes, with very few loses.

well usually there is a commander on each side and with current balance the com behind jethros doesnt stand a chance

lere i like u for making statements and putting facts to it

i dont but i guess thats not on topic...

erm, those numbers suggest that jethros are the better choice:

Higher DPS:M Cost
Higher HP:M Cost

The diffrence in E-cost is fairly trivial

in addition, the smaller footprint that makes them easier to micro within commander repair range.

what makes the slasher better exactly? longer range? or just higher individual hp/more centralized power for easier repair-micro?

more dps
higher repair speed

DPS for cost is more relevant than DPS per unit.

Enough theory craft! show 10 test-games with different setups XD

Do you consider it a bad thing if either is better in a blind unit vs unit comparison?

For testing:
Just dld the file, i uploaded, put it into spring main dir, and erase the crasher slasher name part.
Dld cheat save widget.
load spring , and enable cheat save widget, and the titan duel map.

/cheat
/godmode
/spectator

set speed to 2x

-Repeat-
Press control F8.

watch
count

Self-d remainigs
-end repeat-

For dull repairing commanders, Pause the game, then set are repeat repair (with alt holded) area zone. unpause.

That way you get test games. ive done around 8 of each setup i posted about.

not bad.

What is bad is samsons/slashers are owning too much.
bc of repair speed, BT, ... and some other factors..
This seems to be the case, in few Real games ive had. anyone else?
the tests... are up to be interpreted, depending on that.


What about BT and E cost? if it aint for that, freakers rules t1. same for gunships....
That dps/cost page, is not good for xta
For it to be usefull for this mod, it really needs to tell something about BT and E cost.
Not to mention unit speed, turnrate, turret turnrate, accuracy, e cost per shot, weapon velocity, range. RANGE.

In this specific case, you have a slight higher dps/cost for crashers.
But you will get samsons out of the lab faster.
Massing more dps in less time.
anyone with the numbers of this?

do you play agility hero? :p