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 Post subject: Commander balance talk.
PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 15:10 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
Please migrate here your relevant posts about commander.

I dont think upgraded commanders are AMAZINGLY OP, but have few details.

Hp/regen was raised as one.
Im not sure about it. will need more data to compare.
Right now, commander can walk away for a while, at it will be healed its its not being hit, does that happen too fast?

I have some other issues related to the cost of the first moprh, specially in e cost and bt.

Its 20 secs and 1300 energy.


The cloak energy cost was lowered too much.

and dgun range increase seems a bit too much in practice, for the cost at least.


radar ranges and los have to be watched closely too.

While the first upgraded commander seems ok in this...

(imo)It against the game spirit that the only thing you need is a commander, and you can forget of things like planting a well placed radar (which is a key factor of xta gameplay), or a well done (timing) scouting.

This is independent of the cost of the unit.
(think of a krog for example).


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 17:59 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
take away core comm's ability to d gun and live


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 18:52 
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In general in XTA,IMO,the commander needs to be more efficient on bigger maps,less efficient on smaller maps and less efficient versus extremely heavy units like the golly and sumo unless it reaches the final stages of his morph tree.

Reduce the commander's Dgun damage.
It should still deal Enough to one shot kill lighter units that don't have too much HP(including most T2 units),but not enough to one shot rape heavier units with tons of hp.
This will be the commander at It's first form.

Make the second morph cost more $,and it should just add more basic abilities,like some AA and torpedoes under water.

As the game progresses to T2,units tend to have longer ranges and just be more cost effective which makes the laser almost obsolete.
As you morph to the third and forth stages the laser damage and laser range should increase(and also some other basic stats like speed turn rate and hp.
If the commander can deal dmg with his laser more often and be more maneuverable with better speed and turn rate it also means It will be easier to get the xp required to morph.
ATM the morphing is centered around the second morph.
at the final morph stage the commander should get a big boost to dgun damage that will allow it to 3 shot kill a Krogoth(along side more hp and speed from the earlier morphs it shouldn't be much more difficult to kill a krog if you can get the xp to morph to the later stages).

This is an outline to the changes i suggest to the commanders,the finer details of how much and which stats to raise needs of course testing and more brainstorming.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 18:58 

Joined: 22 Jul 2008, 01:30
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Quote:
ATM the morphing is centered around the second morph.


I'd say about 1% of morphed comms morph to the 2nd level

Also, making the Comm's d gun do limited damage? GTFO 3 shots for a Krog? what the hell? you'll die in that time, espicially if the krog has backup


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 19:03 
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Last edited by Gota on 22 Dec 2009, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 19:03 
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babbles wrote:
Quote:
ATM the morphing is centered around the second morph.


I'd say about 1% of morphed comms morph to the 2nd level

Also, making the Comm's d gun do limited damage? GTFO 3 shots for a Krog? what the hell? you'll die in that time, espicially if the krog has backup


is limited Damage for the Dgun so controversial?
If I remember correctly up to a certain point you couldnt one shot kill a Krog in OTA.
If not 3 than it can be 2...The commander's HP should increase more during the morphing stages to allow it to survive longer against direct fire.
About the second morph.
that was me being silly I meant the second stage,after the first morph.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 20:41 
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Not sure what you guys are on about, the numbers just need a trim;

Quote:
[ARM_DISINTEGRATOR]
energypershot=400; //was 350//

Commander t0
autoheal=2; //was 4//

commander t1
autoheal=4; //was 6//
max velocity=1.3; //was 1.4// (t0 = 1.2)
radardistance=1100; //was 1600/// (t0=800)
sonardistance=1100; //was 1600/// (t0=800)
cloakcostmoving=900; // was 700// (t0=1000)

commander t2
autoheal=8; //was 12//
max velocity=1.4; //was 1.5// (t0 = 1.2)
radardistance=1600; //was 2400/// (t0=800)
sonardistance=1600; //was 2400/// (t0=800)
cloakcostmoving=800; // was 700// (t0=1000)

also, Dgun range should _never_ increase with upgrades. the combination of greater dgun range, speed and regen makes com faggery completely dominant.


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PostPosted: 22 Dec 2009, 22:36 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
Basic, interesting idea.
Round up the concept and we can test it.

But thats not what this thread is supposed to discuss.

As we are talking about small changes, and tweaks, to current commanders, not complete remakes. (at least not right now).




What about dgun range?

It makes t2 com almost inmune to rockos and very hard to bust with other units in small/med numbers.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 13:27 
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Dgun range should _never_ increase with upgrades. the combination of greater dgun range, speed and regen makes com faggery completely dominant.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 13:28 
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1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
Dgun range should _never_ increase with upgrades. the combination of greater dgun range, speed and regen makes com faggery completely dominant.


I kinda agree on this.
The dgun really doesn't feel like it needs any buffs.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 14:09 
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Gota wrote:
is limited Damage for the Dgun so controversial?


It is. The thing with dgun is it kills everything instantly, and has always been so. It's the basic tenet of TA and spring too (there is even a site named www.d-gun.com). Otherwise we might just as well go and play Axis and Allies.

Gota wrote:
If I remember correctly up to a certain point you couldnt one shot kill a Krog in OTA.

Must be some hack of it.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 14:11 
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Jools wrote:
Gota wrote:
is limited Damage for the Dgun so controversial?


It is. The thing with dgun is it kills everything instantly, and has always been so. It's the basic tenet of TA and spring too (there is even a site named http://www.d-gun.com). Otherwise we might just as well go and play Axis and Allies.

Gota wrote:
If I remember correctly up to a certain point you couldnt one shot kill a Krog in OTA.

Must be some hack of it.


No i think it was so until it was changed by a Cavedog update.
And this is XTA...
The Spiritual successor of TA,SupCom,changed Dgun to something else and only allowed it to be extremely powerful if you manage to upgrade your commander far enough.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 14:21 
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The supcom overload weapon does not get more powerful as you upgrade your commander, though you can upgrade the primary weapon. Its just rarely used as it isn't as obvious as the dgun nor as powerful.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 16:59 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
FaerieWithBoots wrote:
The "commander and his gang of skirmishers" type of gameplay is typical for XTA multiplayer. And one of the reasons i like 1v1s more then big multiplayer games. Try to macro you base and raiding partys at the same time with microing your storms. The player who can multitask best will win :-) Ie look at how high level Starcraft players play. They manage to multitask 10 times as much without a user friendly GUI ;-)
Fortunatly, in XTA 1v1 battles you'll see a more diverse sort of gameplay. (also a lot of spam) But, again, XTA is a mod that is supposed to favor micro intensive gameplay. You could argue if this should be 40/60, 10/90 or whatever (to put like AF did) it still is a micro oriented game. If you'd ask me id go for a 40/60 (favoring micro) approach.

Another point:
The type of game you┬┤ll get is mostly dependent on the map you play, so you dont like a certain type of game? try some other maps.
If you put 8 players on a relatively small map you'll see a 2 walls of samsons from top to bottom with 8 commanders evenly devided over them XD Play a bigger map, or maps were there are more routes to the other players base.

With the current XTA balancetest2 version the commander-samson repair game is allready nerfed a bit (flash rapes samsonlines if they can get in)


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 17:00 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
pintle wrote:
Very few skilled players can integrate com morph with their early (or even mid) game. If you don't plan/execute it with a very tight economy you are substantially handicapped in production, and will rapidly find yourself encircled and unable to raid effectively. Yes morphed com push is extremely powerful, but it comes with substantial handicaps. You really do not see many morphed coms in 1v1.

I very rarely AA com push. I have been saying this in response to people bitching about slasher etc for years. I don't use AA com push in ~85% of my games, and I seem to do ok.

Bring as many autoskirm, autowobble, dgun aiming bots as you like AF. See how effective they actually are in comparison to a genuinely skilled player. I think you may be disappointed.

Regarding micro/macro balance, in the vast majority of large team games, I will execute a fairly committed rush (for example 4 flash being my initial build, and with the intel I gather from raiding, respond to their BO with relevant units of my own.

Generally, through micromanagement, I can manage to do a fair amount of damage with my rush, hampering their expansion. After those initial units have landed, the macro game dominates my attention to a far greater extent than unit micro or com push. If you can get a lead in the early game, and then sustain economic growth with minimal raiding on your opponents, you are predisposed to dominate the game. In larger games, macro can become significantly more important than micro, if for no other reason than the fact that landing the killing blow is that much harder.

I think speccing decent players 1v1ing in XTA and then complaining that "micromanagement is too important" is a very naive sentiment tbh.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 17:05 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:
nobody microed xta towards unit-micromanagement its just that players realized that you can achieve more if you micro better. i'm pretty sure that if we had a time machine our current vets would beat all the v0.66 (or whatever version it was SY last released) pros, because they know how to micro units right.


actually, in terms of compush micro alot has been changed in favour of it since even v7.

coms regen HP over time now - they didnt used to, and most the time one player lost a compush simply because his com slowly got weaned down by stray missles - now, coms and missle lines are more resilient, especially after morph.

defences were made significantly less effective since v7, especially the HLT and popup. previously, t1 was quickly redundant as HLTs were rushed foward and the teamgame was all about the t2 rush.

morph gives commander much stronger regen and repair, making com micro extremely rewarding. previously com became fairly redundant later game unless you had the E to stay cloaked on the move.


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 17:06 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
TheMightyOne wrote:
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
TheMightyOne wrote:
nobody microed xta towards unit-micromanagement its just that players realized that you can achieve more if you micro better. i'm pretty sure that if we had a time machine our current vets would beat all the v0.66 (or whatever version it was SY last released) pros, because they know how to micro units right.


actually, in terms of compush micro alot has been changed in favour of it since even v7.

coms regen HP over time now - they didnt used to, and most the time one player lost a compush simply because his com slowly got weaned down by stray missles - now, coms and missle lines are more resilient, especially after morph.

defences were made significantly less effective since v7, especially the HLT and popup. previously, t1 was quickly redundant as HLTs were rushed foward and the teamgame was all about the t2 rush.

morph gives commander much stronger regen and repair, making com micro extremely rewarding. previously com became fairly redundant later game unless you had the E to stay cloaked on the move.


you're right, but it doesn't make all the other things i've said false.

micro is important if you want to play competetively but nobody is trying to replace strategic thinking with it. i have to remind you, it's an RTS. if you want more strategic thinking play "panzer general 2" which is also a great game. name me 1 of the new, popular RTSes where micro wouldnt improve your gameplay.

i still think its the changes made to xta are minor in comparisson to the changes of the players styles. look at sabutai, he barely uses his com at front line and still he manages to pwn a bigger part of our commnity. same goes for ray though he is using his com more than sab.

p.s. 2 years ago or so i suggested removing autorepair altogether from all units but the whole xta comminty was against it. you were part of it then, ik. so why whine now?


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 18:43 

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
If morph was OP then good players would do it regularly in 1v1.

They don't.

In ~6 years of playing OTA I never once saw krog survive dgun. Supcom overdrive is basically useless, as, for eg, upgraded ROF on Cybran com gives better dps (or did pre FA at least...).


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 18:45 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
pintle wrote:
If morph was OP then good players would do it regularly in 1v1.
I should do better argument, but will make this instead:

Do you go t2 lab at start?




And, its not OP..... it has some about costs... about e cost.. about dgun range and speed..... cloak cost..


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PostPosted: 23 Dec 2009, 20:20 

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
You can't start t2 1v1 unless you are playing on a metal map, and even then you should still get rolled (unless your opponent is doing the same).

I posted in such blunt terms in response to IK's HUEG TEXT :P


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