View topic - Balance discussion: Slasher/Crasher


All times are UTC + 1 hour


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2009, 12:31 
User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2009, 12:21
Lets make a seperate topic about this.

Quote:
mongus wrote:
Can someone enlighten me on why slashers got a damage buff over crashers in v9? thanks.


no >_>

good thing you brought it up. i didn't know they got buffed. maybe i just forgot. i can remember a discussion about kbots beeing much better then vehicles maybe this is one of it's outcomes. i'm up for reducing its dmg, it already got more hp.

v8.1

jethro 18 dps
samson 17.14 dps

v9.55

jethro 18 dps
samson 19.52 dps

i'm ok with samsoms beeing a bit better, they have to coz veh have more HP in general and samson lines shouldnt become obsolete, but thats a bit too much i guess... (we need a "balance" subforum)


I agree on this samson/slasher issue. They are a bit too strong. (note a BIT) In team games going all in slasher spam is allmost compulsary. However, i dont think XTA should be balanced to suit team games, team balance comes second to compatitive 1v1.
In 1v1 games slasher you see far less slasher spam. Flash/gator are the weopon of choice most of the time.

To start with id sugest a small reduction of hp and maybe los. This would make them more funarable to raiders/stumpys without harming there AA capabilitys.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2009, 09:29 
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2008, 23:08
Location: Germany
FaerieWithBoots wrote:
Lets make a seperate topic about this.

Quote:
mongus wrote:
Can someone enlighten me on why slashers got a damage buff over crashers in v9? thanks.


no >_>

good thing you brought it up. i didn't know they got buffed. maybe i just forgot. i can remember a discussion about kbots beeing much better then vehicles maybe this is one of it's outcomes. i'm up for reducing its dmg, it already got more hp.

v8.1

jethro 18 dps
samson 17.14 dps

v9.55

jethro 18 dps
samson 19.52 dps

i'm ok with samsoms beeing a bit better, they have to coz veh have more HP in general and samson lines shouldnt become obsolete, but thats a bit too much i guess... (we need a "balance" subforum)


I agree on this samson/slasher issue. They are a bit too strong. (note a BIT) In team games going all in slasher spam is allmost compulsary. However, i dont think XTA should be balanced to suit team games, team balance comes second to compatitive 1v1.
In 1v1 games slasher you see far less slasher spam. Flash/gator are the weopon of choice most of the time.

To start with id sugest a small reduction of hp and maybe los. This would make them more funarable to raiders/stumpys without harming there AA capabilitys.


if tmo is right, why didnt spammed the ppl crasher-lines in the past time, maybe increase the hp of thuds/hammer to counter them better
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2009, 09:36 

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
Somebody actually compare dps/hp for cost.

And take into account you can fit almost 2x the number of kbots as you can veh into the same space= much much more effective dps.

Kbots can also turn and retreat much better, facilitating much easier com push micro.

You also get more bots faster (I'm pretty sure), and since gaining critical mass is absolutely key to winning via mass missile units, this factor should not be overlooked either.

I have never found them too powerful, except in the context of puny flash tanks.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2009, 19:03 
User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2009, 16:29
Location: Finland
pintle wrote:
Somebody actually compare dps/hp for cost.


I think cost should be related to physical size (corresponds more or less to metal expenditure), but not to dps. Dps should be should be related to weapon type, which is indirectlky related to hp as well, because heavier units can carry heavier weapons. But not a direct relationship between dps and cost.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2009, 00:28 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
The harder to manufacture the weapon, the higher the cost.

Weapon cost is a hole system, but "theorically" assiging part of the metal and energy cost to the dps or effectiveness of the weapon is a good imaginery.

In my taste, the higher damage the weapon, the higher in energy cost (at buildtime) it shall require.

As this is not analized nor written anywhere, (that i know), and its a hard, controversial and highly theoretical/Fictional issue, its up to the good eye and experience of the ones managing the mod.


Blah appart.



Quote:
And take into account you can fit almost 2x the number of kbots as you can veh into the same space= much much more effective dps.
This.... while true... im reluctant to accept as a valid thing.


Image

that means, you can fit 83.8% samsons in the space of 1 crasher.

thats 16.2% less samsons.

thats odd as the footprint is 50% bigger. (2x2 vs 3x3).

Jethro vs Samson
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... arm_samson

Sad this does not compare weapon damages.

Code:
buildcostmetal:   128   149   +16.4%
buildcostenergy:   1219   1284   +5.3%
buildtime:   2631   2135   -18.9%
maxdamage:   720   750   +4.2%


weapon DPS 18 vs 19.52 +5.5%

so does cost 16% more metal, and does 5.5% more damage...

but as 1 crasher = 83.8% samsons, you should get an effective dps of = 16.36 DPS. vs an equally longer crasher line. (effectively 90.9% damage).

With +4.2% hp.. but that must be converted too. so, you get 628.5 HP in the same length of space than a crasher.

About production, samsons get to produce 19% faster.


Without taking space into account, you would still get
+5.5% damage
+4.2% HP (9.1% in slashers case)
(in 81% of the time of your opponent... given resources... not sure how this influences the game, it has to do with metal richness...).



The picture is of 10 jethros/samsons, in flat terrain.

This is... an usual setup if you really want to missile push.
Its an ideal number of units. I wouldnt produce more than 10 for compushing purposes... although at times this happens (but its hard to repair them).

While the arguments and differences are true, you see that the amount of space is ... not a big issue (for a normal compush).


Samson vs Slasher
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... re_slasher

worth noting, slasher has +9.1% HP than crasher.
Jethro/crasher, have minimal diferences but hp.


Unmanaged testing, shows.

samsons win 98% with 3 4 or 5 units still alive (4 usually)

Unmanaged testing, with repeat repairing commanders, shows

samsons win 100% with 7 or 8 units still alive (7 usually)
(ofc babbles can dgun all your samson and your base, build an llt in your commanders head, nuke you no matter where you are, fly a jethro past your defense lines with his dgun, and still have time to dance his skeeters)


And seems... samsons repairs faster? odd.

omg, look at this:
http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=i ... =xtapev955
rank 184 and 185

Las value is complex, its:
h/m * dps (damage/s) = h*d/ms
but, h = hp.... damage = -(hp)?????

Code:
h * -(h)            h^2
-------- =   - ( -------)
m * s                m*s
think this is wrong.
it tells which unit does more damage and... gives more hp per metal.


Attachments:
File comment: use saveloadwidget and titanduel
(samson jetrhoes)xsavegame.rar [1.29 KiB]
Downloaded 12 times
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2009, 12:08 
User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2009, 12:21
Quote:
(ofc babbles can dgun all your samson and your base, build an llt in your commanders head, nuke you no matter where you are,
fly a jethro past your defense lines with his dgun, and still have time to dance his skeeters)

Feel the love XD
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2009, 13:20 
User avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
mongus wrote:
And seems... samsons repairs faster? odd.

Nothing odd with that, its buildtime is 2135 compared to jethros 2631, and it has a bit more hp too.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2009, 22:58 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
JohannesH wrote:
mongus wrote:
And seems... samsons repairs faster? odd.

Nothing odd with that, its buildtime is 2135 compared to jethros 2631, and it has a bit more hp too.

Yes, i just realized that the other day.

Not sure if repair time fits BT in all cases....

If the BT if smaller and the HP bigger, the repair speed must be noticeable faster. Can someone calculate that?
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2009, 23:55 
User avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
repair time = build time.

So hp repair speed is hp/bt. Multiply by comms bp to get hp healed in second.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2009, 00:13 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
crasher repair speed: 0.273 [hp/BT] x 120.2 [BT/s] = 32.89 [hp/s] (by commander)
crasher repair speed: 0.351 [hp/BT] x 120.2 [BT/s] = 42.22 [hp/s] (by commander)

28% faster repair speed.

I think this lone factor would give samsons the victory, even with old damage. given a repairing commander.

Will make some tests with old xta.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2009, 04:40 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
Ive tested with xta 8.1 pe.

I this version, jethroes and slashers are the same, in stats, except the weapon.

jethros has 36 damage, with 2 reloadtime, = 18 DPS
Slasher has 36 damage, with 2.1 reloadtime= 17.14 DPS
(this seems finetuned.).


Unmanaged testing, shows. (xta8.1)

Jethroes win 100% of the times, with 3 units still alive

Unmanaged testing, with repeat repairing commanders, shows

samsons win 100% of the times with 6, 7 or 8 units still alive (6 usually)


So, in this case, we have crashers wining if they fight an equal number of samsons, without the aid of a commander.

Adding a repairing commander to the equation, turns the odds towards the samsons, that end up beating the jethroes, with very few loses.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2009, 10:09 
User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2007, 14:32
Location: Germany
mongus wrote:
Adding a repairing commander to the equation, turns the odds towards the samsons, that end up beating the jethroes, with very few loses.


well usually there is a commander on each side and with current balance the com behind jethros doesnt stand a chance
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2009, 10:32 
User avatar

Joined: 30 Jun 2008, 23:08
Location: Germany
lere i like u for making statements and putting facts to it
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 21 Nov 2009, 13:31 
A.N.T.S. Developer
User avatar

Joined: 26 Sep 2009, 20:26
Location: Ukraine
manolo_ wrote:
lere i like u for making statements and putting facts to it

i dont but i guess thats not on topic...
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2009, 18:55 
Map Creator
User avatar

Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 10:24
Location: waiting in line for The Expendables 2
erm, those numbers suggest that jethros are the better choice:

Higher DPS:M Cost
Higher HP:M Cost

The diffrence in E-cost is fairly trivial

in addition, the smaller footprint that makes them easier to micro within commander repair range.

what makes the slasher better exactly? longer range? or just higher individual hp/more centralized power for easier repair-micro?
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 23 Nov 2009, 09:58 
User avatar

Joined: 26 Feb 2007, 14:32
Location: Germany
1v0ry_k1ng wrote:
what makes the slasher better exactly?


more dps
higher repair speed
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2009, 11:41 

Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 16:01
Location: Low Fell, UK
DPS for cost is more relevant than DPS per unit.
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2009, 11:43 
User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2009, 12:21
Enough theory craft! show 10 test-games with different setups XD
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2009, 11:52 
User avatar

Joined: 07 Apr 2009, 11:43
Do you consider it a bad thing if either is better in a blind unit vs unit comparison?
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2009, 17:53 

Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 17:52
FaerieWithBoots wrote:
Enough theory craft! show 10 test-games with different setups XD
For testing:
Just dld the file, i uploaded, put it into spring main dir, and erase the crasher slasher name part.
Dld cheat save widget.
load spring , and enable cheat save widget, and the titan duel map.

/cheat
/godmode
/spectator

set speed to 2x

-Repeat-
Press control F8.

watch
count

Self-d remainigs
-end repeat-

For dull repairing commanders, Pause the game, then set are repeat repair (with alt holded) area zone. unpause.

That way you get test games. ive done around 8 of each setup i posted about.

JohannesH wrote:
Do you consider it a bad thing if either is better in a blind unit vs unit comparison?
not bad.

What is bad is samsons/slashers are owning too much.
bc of repair speed, BT, ... and some other factors..
This seems to be the case, in few Real games ive had. anyone else?
the tests... are up to be interpreted, depending on that.


pintle wrote:
DPS for cost is more relevant than DPS per unit.
What about BT and E cost? if it aint for that, freakers rules t1. same for gunships....
That dps/cost page, is not good for xta
For it to be usefull for this mod, it really needs to tell something about BT and E cost.
Not to mention unit speed, turnrate, turret turnrate, accuracy, e cost per shot, weapon velocity, range. RANGE.

In this specific case, you have a slight higher dps/cost for crashers.
But you will get samsons out of the lab faster.
Massing more dps in less time.
anyone with the numbers of this?

do you play agility hero? :p
Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
Site layout created by Roflcopter et al.