CenterRock River - Knorke's competition

[Forboding Angel]

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30280

Ok, so, Knorke didn't address some very serious issues with his theme. The most of which being that someone using the original mother's mapconv will have vastly different filesizes from someone using Beherith's mapconv, as will someone using Spring Map Edit or L3DT.

With that in mind, I stuck with the spirit of the competition and used Beherith's MapConv, which yields larger filesizes, but is pretty much all around better.

Map without SSMF is 2.8mb. With SSMF it is 7.8mb (the splat texture is 4mb and doesn't compress well).

What I have linked on springfiles, is with SSMF, as I feel that this competition is semi-worthless if not using the latest methods and trying to minify them.

This also acts as a nice demo as to the HUGE difference that SSMF makes.

Here are some screenies :-D
















Comparison with the original --
Original:


Forblove (less than 10 colors used on this entire texture):



Take the Spring Mapping quiz!

[knorke]

This is not 'Nam, gooby! There are rules!
Even without the ssmf map is too big.

Sadly advmapshading does not work on this computer, so can not test:
What happens if you resize distribution.png to something smaller? Will it get stretched to fit mapsize?

[Funkencool]

I think so, as long as its the same size as specular (and 2^x?), it doesn't matter what size everything is. I've done everything from 512x512 to 4096x4096 on the same map with no problems.

[Forboding Angel]

Distribution is only 87 kb. I think you are referring to splat, and yes, changing the size of those has a very big (negative) impact.

Also, you didn't read well enough. Your rules fail for many reasons.

Ok, so, Knorke didn't address some very serious issues with his theme. The most of which being that someone using the original mother's mapconv will have vastly different filesizes from someone using Beherith's mapconv, as will someone using Spring Map Edit or L3DT.

All of the map thumbs you posted in your thread were done with mothers mapconv, which results in drastically lower filesizes.

However, using mothers is basically a supremely dumb thing to do. Therefore, I followed the spirit of the rules which should be:

What I have linked on springfiles, is with SSMF, as I feel that this competition is semi-worthless if not using the latest methods and trying to minify them.

The goal should be to achieve the best results with the lowest filesize. I have an 8x8 pure white map that I use for screenies that weighs in at about 150kb. I win.


Also, quiz:
Take Spring Mapping quiz!

[Cheesecan]

This map is almost 7mb.. That is way over the limit.

[Forboding Angel]

You need to read. Moar.

The map itself is only 2.8mb.

[Cheesecan]

You need to read. Moar.

The map itself is only 2.8mb.

Yup and santa clause and the tooth fairy exist as well.

This is not your original work of art either. You could do better!

[Forboding Angel]

I'm getting tired of quoting myself for people who refuse to read...

Ok, so, Knorke didn't address some very serious issues with his theme. The most of which being that someone using the original mother's mapconv will have vastly different filesizes from someone using Beherith's mapconv, as will someone using Spring Map Edit or L3DT.

With that in mind, I stuck with the spirit of the competition and used Beherith's MapConv, which yields larger filesizes, but is pretty much all around better.

This is not your original work of art either. You could do better!

http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 22#p540922

[The Yak]

Despite all the bitching at forb for blowing the filesize limit, I don't see a specific limit stated anywhere for this contest. Just a bunch of images that for some reason were arbitrarily used as a guide for this contest. Am I supposed to download all of them and calculate the average size in kb or something?

It's also pretty much impossible to keep it under 1mb if you want to use SSMF on it, even if the texture has only basic colors. Splatmap alone takes up like 4mb in dds and can't really be compressed any more. There really isn't much one can do that hasn't already been done many times to a map with this kind of limitations. This is going to sound condescending, but I'll be surprised if anyone comes up with anything decent that fits the criteria by monday.

I'd be down with participating in a mapmaking contest like this, but without a clearer objective or rule set I don't see the point. Maybe find some roles that are missing with maps and hold a contest for one of those? (jasper made a post on ZK forums about there being no ffa maps for certain amounts of players... I'll look that up again)

[Forboding Angel]

^^^ +9001

Also, the CT guys are probably shitting themselves with Joy right about now

[knorke]

This download button: 0,463 MB
The map: 6 MB
The rules say "smaller than button"
Therefore the map is over the limit.
Why it is over does not matter.

If ssmf increases the filesize too much, then maybe it simply can not be used. Just like including background music or loadpictures or large textures for features would probally put size over the limit too.
The dimension limits of gokart racing rule out monster trucks, thats really too bad.

I don't see a specific limit stated anywhere for this contest. Just a bunch of images that for some reason were arbitrarily used as a guide for this contest. Am I supposed to download all of them and calculate the average size in kb or something?

The limit is the size of button. Limits are always arbitrarily. You can pick any button you want.
(the "They see me dloading'..." one is 527 kb so if lazy maybe just use that)

[Forboding Angel]

Knorke,

the original mother's mapconv will have vastly different filesizes from someone using Beherith's mapconv, as will someone using Spring Map Edit or L3DT

If you are going to try some shit like this, you need to be very specific about the tools used.

[Beherith]

Mothers and Beherith's mapconv both do the same (lossy) compression. Mine just defaults to 0.

SME doesnt compress afaik, I dont know about l3dt.

[zwzsg]

User bolder, redder, text, does not make you more right.

Tools are not specified, so you are free to use any tools. The only constraint is the final filesize.

[Cheesecan]

rage

While I agree that the rules of entry and judging system are too loosely defined (as I implied in the original thread), what gives you the right to question knorke about his competition?

When I read his post, I clearly understood that filesizes must be below ~0.5mb. How you managed to interpret the rules to allow for 2.8 mb or 7mb maps, for that matter, is beyond rationalization. This is purely you trying to have your way by yelling at people. Not cool.

This competition is aiming at micro maps, sort of like the demo scene where people make 64kb demos with incredible (albeit mostly procedural) content. The competition changes character if you allow maps several megabytes large.

Now you have made two nice maps. They might not qualify for the competition, but they are still there for players to enjoy so nothing is lost.

You can make another attempt that is within the limits - and probably win since you are a very talented mapper, or give up and yell that the whole world is wrong.

[Forboding Angel]

Large red text is not rage. This is the 4th time I have repeated myself. Large red text might ensure that for once, he actually reads it.

I have repeatedly explained that unless he defines a specific compiler, it is moot, because you will not be able to achieve this microness with certain compilers. Do you really want people using mothers mapconv with all of it's bugs (or did you forget scanlines already?)?

The point is that there can be no consistency wrt filesize because there are at minimum, 4 different compilers available, all of them using different methods.

And cheese, this is for you, in the hopes that you might read it.

With that in mind, I stuck with the spirit of the competition and used Beherith's MapConv, which yields larger filesizes, but is pretty much all around better.

Do you understand what the spirit of something is, or do I need to start being condescending? Because you aren't leaving me with a lot of options here.

And for those of you who adroitly skipped this post, it pretty much sums up everything quite nicely:

Despite all the bitching at forb for blowing the filesize limit, I don't see a specific limit stated anywhere for this contest. Just a bunch of images that for some reason were arbitrarily used as a guide for this contest. Am I supposed to download all of them and calculate the average size in kb or something?

It's also pretty much impossible to keep it under 1mb if you want to use SSMF on it, even if the texture has only basic colors. Splatmap alone takes up like 4mb in dds and can't really be compressed any more. There really isn't much one can do that hasn't already been done many times to a map with this kind of limitations. This is going to sound condescending, but I'll be surprised if anyone comes up with anything decent that fits the criteria by monday.

I'd be down with participating in a mapmaking contest like this, but without a clearer objective or rule set I don't see the point. Maybe find some roles that are missing with maps and hold a contest for one of those? (jasper made a post on ZK forums about there being no ffa maps for certain amounts of players... I'll look that up again)

Wrt filesize, sure, I could dick it all up, remove ssmf, and compress it to hell and back, but what would you be left with? A crappy, un-imaginative smf map that is completely useless to every game save CT. OR, a single texture spread across an entire canvas, in which case, I already win. You guys might have forgotten just how long I have been around. How long I have been around is meaningless, but the point is that for pretty much all of that time I have been making maps. Good ones, bad ones, pretty ones, fugly ones (I'm looking at you, "Flacid" stream)...

Here is one of the notable ones. Not sure if it counts though, because it's a terrible remake. Maybe we should call it a fail-make. Done after genblood managed to completely dick it over once before.

Code: Select all

File Information

Title / Version	MetalHeckv2
Mapsize	8 x 8
License	Freeware / Free
Filename	MetalHeckv2.sdz
Filesize	761.94 KB
Date	02/25/2008 - 13:34
Changed	01/01/2011 - 19:34
Publisher / Author	SYSTEM (Uploaded by SpringFiles System)
Windspeeds	0-10 Knots
Gravity Force	112 Newton
Start Positions	10

Filesize 761.94 KB

I'm sure that if you count the downloads spread across FU UF and springfiles, you will find that it numbers in the thousands.

But hell, why don't we go further!

This map was made by our own ZWZSG and I'm sure it has more downloads than metalheck (and it looks a lot better too... not that that's hard to pull off considering metalheck was a total hatchet job):

Code: Select all

File Information

Title / Version	azure_rampart
Mapsize	16 x 16
License	Freeware / Free
Filename	Azure_Rampart.sd7
Filesize	558.04 KB
Date	02/25/2008 - 13:34
Changed	01/01/2011 - 19:26
Publisher / Author	SYSTEM (Uploaded by SpringFiles System)
Windspeeds	8-24 Knots
Gravity Force	70 Newton
Start Positions	10

Filesize 558.04 KB

You know what these two maps have in common? If you guessed "mother's mapconv", you win one free internet.

Have I made my point yet?

I will be perfectly happy participating in some sort of a competition like this, as long as the rules are plainly laid out. But you aren't going to get anything larger than a 10x10 less than 500kb. And especially not with behe's mapconv. Telling people to use mother's mapconv is absolutely useless, and a gigantic step backwards.

At the risk of repeating myself once more...

I feel that this competition is semi-worthless if not using the latest methods and trying to minify them.

I am neither angry, nor upset. Anyone who knows me can tell you that I am simply trying to drive a point home to people who can't see past their eyebrows. I have repeated myself over and over, and what I have said has been ignored time and time again by those who have no answer for the points I raise, because they are completely valid. I have also put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

You want this make under 500k? I can give you that, but it's going to look like dogshit, which defeats the entire purpose.

I could give you a flat grey map for 100k with a nice heightmap, but once again, if it looks like crap, what is the point?

For clarification, I will once again make this point:

I feel that this competition is semi-worthless if not using the latest methods and trying to minify them.

If you don't know what the word minify means, here is a definition. I realize that some people here aren't code or scriptmonkeys or web developers such as myself, so the word minify may not be obvious to you as it is to us.

minify
Web definitions
decrease: make smaller; "He decreased his staff".
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

For example, in web development, when you minify code, you are basically stripping whitespace and anything that might add any size to the code. This is useful if you have a stylesheet that is 20k lines, or a php script spanning hundreds of thousands of lines.

I honestly don't know if java develops minify their code ever, so I can't speak for them (I imagine cheesecan would know).

I apologize for what probably comes across as being condescending. I assure you that that is not the intent here. The intent is simply to make a multitude of points that must be addressed that keep getting brushed aside as though they do not matter, when in fact, they are key.

[knorke]

I have repeatedly explained that unless he defines a specific compiler, it is moot, because you will not be able to achieve this microness with certain compilers.

So use the mapcompiler that gives best results. It is good to know different methods of compiling give different results (though see Beherits post) but in the end it is up to mapper what he uses. Best I could is advice which one compresses best or something. Why would I force people to use a certain tool?

I will just quote Cheesecan, imo it says it all:

This competition is aiming at micro maps, sort of like the demo scene where people make 64kb demos with incredible (albeit mostly procedural) content. The competition changes character if you allow maps several megabytes large.

Also see this story:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Arrows#Weight_story
(tl;dr: race car was slightly too heavy, so they scrapped of the paint and it was ok. Could have complained that without paint the car is now fugly and how paint does not give advantage but that still would not have allowed them to enter)
In a competion nobody cares how you managed to stay within rules, as long as you do.

I have an 8x8 pure white map that I use for screenies that weighs in at about 150kb. I win.

If you think a pure white map is the best possible map, then enter it.
Other thread has some examples of maps within limit that are more original than that. You even mentioned Azure_Rampart which as a 16x16 map is almost within limit. (guess as 14x14 it might be)

Yes, the rules are (purposely) vague on some points like what game,
is it allowed to use archives like springfeatures, is it allowed to make a superlarge button?
So if you want debatte about that. On filesize it is pretty clear.

[Forboding Angel]

I have repeatedly explained that unless he defines a specific compiler, it is moot, because you will not be able to achieve this microness with certain compilers.

So use the mapcompiler that gives best results.

Mothers mapconv gives the smallest files, but FAR from the best results. I'm starting to think that you know too little about mapping and the intricacies to have any real idea what you are talking about here.

[Johannes]

I don't get what's so hard to understand here. Map must be under certain filesize, use whatever methods and tools, end of story.

[Forboding Angel]

And end up with a plethora of really shitty, small filesize maps.

That is not helpful in any way, shape or form.