Project 10 in 2010 - 1,000 players by the end of 2010

[Satirik]

Spring also desperately needs a front-end shell.

I really feel that most lobbies have missed the boat as they already are a front-end shell, they just don't expose the functionality in a way that most users expect.

mmmh ....

[KaiserJ]

satirik why isn't that the default *facepalm* looks so good its making me cry.

anyone who's interested in making a campaign with me (i'd like to work on something for CA or BA, i have a feeling someone already is working on one for CA) shoot me a PM or /j #bogans in the lobby;

i'll also be releasing a map-pack in the next month or so (dragged my feet on this one) of 5 or so maps for campaign applications that i WONT be using. most of these maps are set up as a "grind" sort of mission; try to climb the hill / cross the bridge / ford the river and fight against impossible odds sort of layout. someone already called dibs for firsties but then i'll be releasing them once he's finished having his way with them for sloppy seconds.

IMO, having a strong "campaign" is probably one of the most noticibly absent about any game for spring; i know there are missions but there (as far as i know) isn't anything with a storyline involving multiple maps and battles; i think that having this available, even for one mod, would make all of the difference.

[samoht70]

The latest version of the Spring front-end is a huge improvement over the version I started on (summer 2007), and the game feels more like a commercial release. I'm impressed with the work you guys have done.

I agree that the game needs a tutorial covering basic controls, gameplay, and multiplayer functions: I got kicked from a game last night because I couldn't figure out how to 'give' to teammates... it was embarrassing (I had to launch a skirmish and experiment to figure it out). If the wiki had instructions w/ a screenshot, that would have been helpful.

Once there's a tutorial in place, campaigns are needed. Anybody up for recreating the TA campaign? It's probably more work than I imagine.

I can't program, but perhaps I should make some additions and improvements to the wiki..? Also, the wiki needs to be more accessible (I just type the URL when I need it because there's no obvious links)

[Neddie]

I'm in considerable pain and have been unable to sit up at length for days, so I apologize if I am both sharp and brief.

We've already met this unique player goal, I estimate roughly 1400 different actual people play each month. I think analysis of new account registration will reveal that our player base continues to grow monthly, with between ten and twenty people actually sticking around for repeat play - I suspect the areas with greatest growth are Northern Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States, but there have been recent gains in the Fertile Crescent and Coastal Asia.

The development side of Spring is a matter of merit and time-availability, not a matter of popularity. Our project lead is our project lead because he is first supremely capable and second available. He happens to also be affable and intelligent, so much the better for us. The election of a figurehead is first unnecessary and second unproductive - we have senior moderator administrators and senior administrator developers who represent the community and do it well. We have leaders - Licho, Aegis, Tobi, SwiftSpear, LordMatt. I understand that SwiftSpear and LordMatt are less active than they once were, but while a number of people have asked me to take on their informal responsibilities, as yet there are no plans to change this casual leadership.

Far be it from me to say our moderation is flawless, but it is not as misguided and ineffective as some of the participants in this thread seem to believe. I am available as a moderator roughly six to fourteen hours a day normally, covering a number of undermoderated timezones, though one day I hope to scale that down to three to seven. Few people have complained about my performance, nor would many complain of others such as Quantum and Lion_Heart. While some of our moderators who have served us well have stepped down, and others have scaled back their activity, I am currently working with Tobi/Quantum/Aegis and others on some reforms to streamline our present moderation process. I am also reviewing possible candidates to fill our less moderated time zones, and I implore anybody who has a candidate for moderator or an idea for moderation to bring it up with me in a private message on this forum. I will not be able to respond to many of them but I do promise to read them all.

I find the side notes on GUI in this thread somewhat misguided, and would like to address them as well. We have a highly functional default GUI, we do not need a visually improved default, but rather projects need to take on the task of creating their own custom GUI. It can be done, Star Wars: Imperial Winter has an atmospheric custom GUI, while I am designing a comprehensive GUI for Spring 1944. Even some mods, I refer obliquely to Complete Annihilation, have custom GUI in development. Lua is not a particularly easy tool for creating a GUI, but it does have the power necessary and, given some open examples and documentation, is comparable in resultant function if not wasted time to implementing some unnecessary xml abstraction. GUI is one of the most difficult elements of a modern program, as evidenced by the abundance of obtuse and unattractive GUI in open source as a small world - after years of development, programs like TASClient, The GIMP and Sauerbraten all have substandard GUI.

A bundle package complete with frontend is, once again, the concern of the games and mods, rather than the engine. Spring is an engine, attempting to offer comprehensive downloads of an engine with a variety of games is counterproductive. I suggest game and mod developers look at Spring: 1944 and Kernel Panic for simple bulk installers - we are presently refining our 1944 offering, and I believe zwzsg is looking into porting his frontend to linux. It would be nice to host bulk installers of fully free games on this site as options on the download page, along with the present Lobby + Engine installer.

While I feel it is often wasteful in some ways, I do agree that multiple clients - and to a lesser extent, autohosts - are, in the long-term, good for the community. They foster an environment of competition and thus self-improvement. I presently provide graphical elements for Winter, and am willing to help with other projects that require icons.

I am fading fast, so I will say little on the subject of Marketing and Advertisement. In September I will be able to take on market research and project advertisement once more, though I will not advertise the engine, but rather some games - 1944, Kernel Panic, Gundam RTS. Going out and talking to people remains the most efficient way to develop the community for most. The players hailing from Finland, Great Britain and Italy - all fairly well represented nations - achieved their lasting growth primarily though person to person transmission. If you plan to advertise on a wider scale or through another form of communication, I advise you to advertise particular games on the engine, rather than the engine itself - it is roughly three times as likely to attract somebody into a download. I would also not stress that the product is free - in many developed nations, "free" applied to a product implies a lack of quality, if you only mention the free status as necessary you should pull roughly twice as many people as you would if you opened with "Free RTS Spring". I also request you refer to the engine as Spring, RTS Spring or Spring RTS - this scans better with people and they're about twenty five percent more likely to respond to a post or engage in discussion.

I would like to discuss all of this with you further, but I need to lie down.

Addendum: Tutorials and missions, once again, the responsibility of the game and mod developers. Some projects are working on campaigns but they will be some time in coming. I can help a little KaiserJ, mostly in writing and voice acting, and I recommend poking [XHC]DavetheBrave on lobby - he might be willing to help with a CA campaign. As for the wiki, I'm looking for some people willing to take on that task - I do not wish to over commit myself.

[el_matarife]

IWe've already met this unique player goal, I estimate roughly 1400 different actual people play each month. I think analysis of new account registration will reveal that our player base continues to grow monthly, with between ten and twenty people actually sticking around for repeat play - I suspect the areas with greatest growth are Northern Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States, but there have been recent gains in the Fertile Crescent and Coastal Asia.

I really hate to continue arguing these player statistics, but if we're gaining 20 people a month we've got to be losing about as many simply because our peak player count appears stuck in the 300-350 range and our off peak player count is still 110-150 people. 10 in 2010 is all about hitting 1,000 peak players on a daily basis, with 300-500 during offpeak hours. This should mean you can get a game of anything together in five minutes with no problem. That's the real goal here, getting a game together without making anyone miserable waiting. I've basically stopped playing Spring because it is way too hard to get games together after US / Euro primetime and I tend to play late at night when I can't sleep.

Good photos of Spring frontend

This is apparently exactly what people expect when they start Spring for the first time. Also, they apparently want or expect an into movie. Is anyone willing and able to design such a thing? I assume Spring would need some video playback capability for that too, unless someone wants to make one using the engine itself with a Lua "timedemo" type approach.

[SpikedHelmet]

How customizable is that front-end app?

[zwzsg]

Also, they apparently want or expect an into movie.

As a user, I would hate to have to download a 300MB installer to "check that free game out" and then find out half of the download size was for an amateur video.

I assume Spring would need some video playback capability for that too, unless someone wants to make one using the engine itself with a Lua "timedemo" type approach.

I used xyz's widget (slightly modified for more cinematic effects, auto-GUI-Hidding, etc..) to have Spring turned into some sort of automatic battle movie screensaver.

For instance, that video was shot without me touching any key or mouse (beside one keypress to start fraps recording). The only editing I did was to cut a couple sequences to make it fall under the 10mins Youtube limit, but otherwise it's a movie where the director was a widget. You can have exactly the same on your own screen by installing Kernel Panic Complete Installer (the .zip version lack the widget), and ticking "spectate" on the single player frontend.

[Sefidel]

To Continue

jk, put your ego down for a second. Your not the only one in the world who knows OPENGL . The last time i looked at the src was in Xcode about a month ago, and there are many redundancies.

Secondly to pretend that spring.exe is in good shape is laughable, especially in an open source enviroment. Obviously people are not going to be in sync on their commits, and by the very nature of the beast its going to be less than efficient. Im not blaming or hating on anyone, Im simply pointing out a fact. I didnt say anything about supporting outdated software, Im suggesting that spring OPENGL degrades poorly. Secondly I know an awful lot about OPENGL and OPENGL Profiles, and I can tell you right now that there is room for improvement. Your accusation of my comments being superficial is just plain ego stroking. Can any of you claim that you havnt had regular spring problems? More than you would deal with in a commercial game? Thats what i thought.


Additionally your comment

If Spring needs something less than it is a community full of ppl who think they know everything better and blame the devs w/o doing anything for the community themselves.


Is just you taking offense to someones opinion. If you dont want to hear it than gtfo. All devs seem to think they are gods, and again I wasnt blaming anyone. You just take this shit to personally. You knew when you came in this thread that it wasnt all going to be positive, so grow up and dont troll here.
You have added nothing but nay-saying so far.



smoth

development should be stoppped on any and alll lobbies, protocol and engine , unless it is specific to bugs. Now im not saying this part needs to happpen now but it needs to happen between now and 2010. Constant lobby updates are part of the problem.

FLOZI

saying that you disagree with every statement is practically trolling. Try saying why. Otherwise you are useless.

Neddie

I am simply saying that for things to move forward a leadership role must be taken. As far as moderation, We need more mods and not AFK ones. Being logged into IRC clan sy dosnt count as moderating. You do need more moderators and as you suggested that should take into account time zones not just friends of freinds.

As far as player statistics go, you guys are high. There are barely 80 people at night and of them half are bots. It takes 1 hour to get a game. This is insane.


Now i dont personally care if people disagree with me on any issues, but heres a real one


SIMPLY MAKE A FACEBOOK AND INVITE RL PEOPLE TO SPRING.

I know spring players are reclusive weirdos but we need this part more than anything. If you want more players you need more exposure. IF you break this thread down to its main issue, the issue is lack of players. Well make people you know on facebook play. Invite total strangers. Whatever. Most of the time spent posting so far would be better served inviting people to spring.

[Licho]

KeiserJ - i sent you PM, CA still does not have campaign maker so we welcome you and even other people who would like to help you!

SpikedHelmet - its almost fully customizable. Its rendered by webbrowser so you can make anything that fits into webpage.

Sefidel - as always, if you want to be respected more, do the stuff you are talking about. Improve that OpenGL if you really know what you talking about. Nothing stops you.
Telling other people (who are, unlike you, proved to be experts in given area) what to do is pointless.

[Sefidel]

ah licho.

another man who thinks he is a god.

again I point out a flaw and everyones box of tissues comes out.

Quit crying its obvious to anyone who has used gDEBugger that there are issues.

http://www.opengl.org/sdk/tools/gDEBugger/

download the tool, launch a game and post your results.


BURN

[smoth]

would be nice sefi, but I suspect that asking the devs to only do bug fixes and nothing shiny would quickly demotivate them.

[Regret]

Spring is a hobby project, done by people in their free time for free for their own pleasure.

I really don't understand why people even take this topic seriously.

[Sefidel]

regret is there a thread you havnt trolled?

[smoth]

he doesn't always troll.

[aegis]

ah licho.

another man who thinks he is a god.

again I point out a flaw and everyones box of tissues comes out.

Quit crying its obvious to anyone who has used gDEBugger that there are issues.

http://www.opengl.org/sdk/tools/gDEBugger/

download the tool, launch a game and post your results.


BURN

you say it's burn, but you haven't posted your results...
also, your post is kinda out of line. Tobi is the only god here.

[Sefidel]

aegis i dont need to post my results, also they would be unique per situation. Everyone here is just hatin.

[el_matarife]

Also, they apparently want or expect an into movie.

As a user, I would hate to have to download a 300MB installer to "check that free game out" and then find out half of the download size was for an amateur video.

You've got a point but I was hoping we could do maybe a 30 second video intro in a reasonable amount of space. I think the "Battle screensaver" idea would work just fine. I got several PMs from one dude arguing that Spring's lack of a frontend and intro movie seriously damaged people's expectations somehow.

[smoth]

Also, they apparently want or expect an into movie.

As a user, I would hate to have to download a 300MB installer to "check that free game out" and then find out half of the download size was for an amateur video.

You've got a point but I was hoping we could do maybe a 30 second video intro in a reasonable amount of space. I think the "Battle screensaver" idea would work just fine. I got several PMs from one dude arguing that Spring's lack of a frontend and intro movie seriously damaged people's expectations somehow.

use the movies on the site for that. FLV on the spring site makes a lot more sense.

[Neddie]

We are not so much losing as many players as we gain, but long-term players are playing less individually. All of our leading players, the people I grew into the community with, are either gone or play very seldom - of the classics and my generation, I only have a handful to play with. We all have social lives, I know that there were times where I would work full-time, give ten hours to my fiancee and give the rest of the time to Spring - that isn't a sustainable lifestyle.

I am very aware that the play count drops to below one hundred at certain times, generally because I have to moderate that time period and I want to promote and support Kernel Panic/Gundam RTS/1944 games in a largely untapped collection of time zones.

Furthermore, I estimate almost forty percent of our growth is in private games - during the last few months, I've seen a tremendous rise in dyads and triads playing 1944 privately, coinciding with our much higher download counts.

Anyway, Regret is right, this is a hobby project, all of our time is given and you can't expect professional results - the people who are advertising oriented, like me, have adapted to a budgetless method of operation and lack the experience to work with funding anyway.

We have a Facebook - I've found the networking site less than useful for most practical applications. In fact, I consider the modern social networking site to be a poorly designed plague upon human interaction, but that is a discussion for a time where I can control my pain.

Well, at least you don't aim low. One thousand at peak hours means a conservative estimate roughly five thousand unique players, each playing semi-regularly, probably at least six hours a week. Realistically this means probably seven thousand unique players, each playing at least four hours a week.

With less than fifteen minutes of effort a day, somebody who is poorly networked should be able to pull one to five people in every week. The problem is keeping them, you need to bring them in for a game and then get them that game, somewhat regularly. This would be a great function for people who primarily spectate, in fact, since regular players are already helping the process of growth and replacement though playing.

To those involved in this discussion, I invite those with projects and skills to refine both, and apply the skills to the projects that matter to them. I invite all participants to invite people to play the games you are interested in getting people to play, just go and talk to people. I'm considering designing concert/rave fliers so I can go get out to a social event and reach a few hundred people at a time. I suspect that Kernel Panic would be big with ravers; limited research indicates that my suspicions are not entirely unsupported by reality.

[Licho]

Sefidel - i dont care how obvious it is, in fact i know next to nothing about opengl ..

My point is - you found a problem you claim to understand -> go make yourself usefull by fixing it!

And only then lecture other people..