Spring RTS Engine

Is someone still developing XTA versions? or is 7 the last? XTA has a number of balancing faults; (and would be happy for any other intelligently justified balance issues to be listed by anyone here)

1) Arm Spider; this is the most unbalanced unit in XTA. A single arm spider and 1 L1 missle kbot (thats about 400 metal and 5000 buildtime) can defeat almost any unit, land or air of up to roughly 10x the value! spiders can hit and paralyse air (so normal units can hit them), and bypass any defence with paralysis. they build fast and cost 400 metal. there is no counter for spiders, as defences, powerful units and gunships are all targetable

2) The can: If you build cans in XTA, your opponent is likely to laugh at you, cans are terribly underbalanced (cost/power) atm. The Can can be defeated by A zeus or pyro (both half the price) or 4-5 l1 kbots (3/5 price), is terribly slow, has only 400 range and 5000 HP (for 700 metal, which isnt that good)

3) l1 and l2 Bombers: never have any use at all, because gunships are so much better at any role, and are cheaper.

4)torpedo bombers: too fragile (for cost), and not as effective as gunships.

5)L1 units: at the moment, the missle kbot (jethro or crasher) is so much better than the other kbots (cost/power) due to its long range and good speed. microed missle kbots consist of most the military power in XTA. the missles should be about half as damaging to ensure other kbots have a use; a standoff l1 harassment not a deadly long range threat.

6)Reaper; is not as good as the bulldog. this is insanity, because core are meant to be slow/heavy. since core lack a Panther (effective vs all N cheap) tank, they should have superior normal battle tanks, ie: reaper.

7) mines cost towards unit limit, this shouldnt be the case as in small games (small unit limit) you cant use mines + have a big army

microed ZIppers own all. I dont think zipper rushes are much fun for anyone, and I just dont see the point of a ZIpper unit. it just isnt fun to fight, and it is in itself encouraging a tactic most players despise.

9) morty: cost/power/use, is terrible. a long range unit needs a long range (more than a hlt), and it should have range to match the dominator (although its still low dps and innacurate)

this be for starters

Mostly true,

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:7) mines cost towards unit limit, this shouldnt be the case as in small games (small unit limit) you cant use mines + have a big army

Engine limitation. Everything is a unit in Spring (except for walls and he like which are features but features can neither cloak nor detonate)

1) I really don't think so...

If the enemy unit is intelligently microed, it can kill the spider before it gets in range. Coz spiders have a really short range.

2) But Cans are much better than pyros/zeuses when they are in a swarm, for the same reason that in OTA sampsons are much better than flashes when they are in a swarm: The units in the back of the Can swarm can fire, due to their longer range, whereas the units in the back of the pyro swarm can't

I agree though that they need a slight boost.

3) Bombers are extremely useful at taking out big structures. That's what they were balanced for.

4) Don't know, I've never built them since they were fixed. But I think they get a huge damage bonus against ships.

And if they don't. they should.

5) The missle k-bots are good in small numbers against mobile units, because they have tracking missles. But the rocket k-bots do 25% more damage, which makes them better against structures. And the artillary k-bots are good in big swarms, since they can fire over each other. And the fast attack k-bots / infantry k-bots are really good at raiding.

I see no problem

6) The CORE have a goliath. Which counters the panthers nicely. And so, as long as the reaper and bulldog have the same efficiency, I see no problem.

7) Engine limitation

8] Well, they die to a couple crashers / jethros. Wasting valuable factory time.

9) I think of the morty more as a k-bot tank. It doesn't have great range, but it can fire over itself, making it very useful in a swarm.

Lindir The Green wrote:2) But Cans are much better than pyros/zeuses when they are in a swarm, for the same reason that in OTA sampsons are much better than flashes when they are in a swarm: The units in the back of the Can swarm can fire, due to their longer range, whereas the units in the back of the pyro swarm can't

Not if the have lasers, they can't.

I used to know this guy named Noruas and he would occupy the enemy and hold his ground to make a secret army of 100 cans or 501000 hp and run across the map and pillage and rape the arm and other foes. yes cans are very inefficent because i could have 200 pyros, but cans are so much more inefficent and fun to use. I also forgot to tell ya that when i sent my brawler swarms in, the cans creamed my planes, DAMM THAT NORUAS!

First of all, its NOiZE who is mantaining xta right now.

altough not all changes made it last release.. he may be short on time.

1) Arm Spider; this is the most unbalanced unit in XTA. A single arm spider and 1 L1 missle kbot (thats about 400 metal and 5000 buildtime) can defeat almost any unit, land or air of up to roughly 10x the value! spiders can hit and paralyse air (so normal units can hit them), and bypass any defence with paralysis. they build fast and cost 400 metal. there is no counter for spiders, as defences, powerful units and gunships are all targetable

Hm, i couldnt say they are greatly overpowered. Maybe a bit, but spiders are ezpensive in energy, and, dont do damage at all. So if you have only spiders, you cant kill anything actually.

If you have too few attacking units, spiders will be taken down, by other defenses units your enemy may have.

Have yet to see them abused in game.

2) The can: If you build cans in XTA, your opponent is likely to laugh at you, cans are terribly underbalanced (cost/power) atm. The Can can be defeated by A zeus or pyro (both half the price) or 4-5 l1 kbots (3/5 price), is terribly slow, has only 400 range and 5000 HP (for 700 metal, which isnt that good)

I would say, a can can kill a zeus and not die, same with pyros, so you are mistaken.

Cans take huge damage, and will help you penetrate defenses.
Actually, some guys complained its OP..

Mix cans with ranged units, and you will be able to sand the damage, wile ranged units take down structures.

3) l1 and l2 Bombers: never have any use at all, because gunships are so much better at any role, and are cheaper.

You are totally mistaken there.

Build 15 lvl2 bombers and you can kill almost any target. (antinuke, nuke, fusion etc), in one run.

You actually need lots of fighters (more than 20) to stop a good bombing raid.

On lvl1 bombers.. the cost is quite similar to gunships.
bomber
Gunship

Bombers are faster, speed is 9 compared to gunships only 5.56.

I feel them undepowered too.. but its matter of the use actually..

lvl 1 bombers are intended to hit targets as metal extractors and windmills, and last like 2 passes.. that is 2 metal extractors.

Ive seen lvl1 bombers used effectively this way... but its clear guships have more punch.

If you mass lvl1 gunships you can take out gollies...

lvl1 bombers wont be able to do that, in similar numbers.

More testing is required to decide...

4)torpedo bombers: too fragile (for cost), and not as effective as gunships.

I risk to say.. 5 topedo bombers can wipe out 1 millenium. not tested.

in other words, torpedo bombers inflict a huge damage.

Slow, though, not as easy to use as torpedo gunships.

5)L1 units: at the moment, the missle kbot (jethro or crasher) is so much better than the other kbots (cost/power) due to its long range and good speed. microed missle kbots consist of most the military power in XTA. the missles should be about half as damaging to ensure other kbots have a use; a standoff l1 harassment not a deadly long range threat.

Try some rockos against jethros, rockos are faster, and have more pucnh and hp.
Above all, mix unit types.

Ive tested, with success, NOT using misile kbots at all, in this version, with the last nerf to missiles. You manage to counter well.

6)Reaper; is not as good as the bulldog. this is insanity, because core are meant to be slow/heavy. since core lack a Panther (effective vs all N cheap) tank, they should have superior normal battle tanks, ie: reaper.

Dunno exactly what you mean, reaper is just as good as a bulldog, .. just one shot weaker iirc.

Also, as arm has the panther, core has leveler. 1 leveler > 1 Hlt.

7) mines cost towards unit limit, this shouldnt be the case as in small games (small unit limit) you cant use mines + have a big army

not the case usually, ... maybe this has issues.. but do not show usually, as nobody uses huge minefields, and huge minefields are unefective.

microed ZIppers own all. I dont think zipper rushes are much fun for anyone, and I just dont see the point of a ZIpper unit. it just isnt fun to fight, and it is in itself encouraging a tactic most players despise.

Build llts.

The master counter against zipper rush, is to rush 3 jethros and 1 radar.

9) morty: cost/power/use, is terrible. a long range unit needs a long range (more than a hlt), and it should have range to match the dominator (although its still low dps and innacurate)

Hm.. morty.. seems not of much use.

Although.. its unmatched strategical core unit, the only mobile artyllery able to use high trajectory, and be accurate.

Its true is hard to use mortys, ... but just cheked, the cost is almost the half of domintars, in metal and BT.. so it may worth a try as rushing unit, well microed.

I have to take issue with some of these as well.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:1) Arm Spider; this is the most unbalanced unit in XTA.

Countered by longe range units or large swarms.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:3) l1 and l2 Bombers: never have any use at all, because gunships are so much better at any role, and are cheaper.

Bombers are for hitting a single target through heavy AA. They are better at this than an equal number of gunships, by a large amount. Gunships are for base-killing through light AA. They have lots and lots of counters.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:4)torpedo bombers: too fragile (for cost), and not as effective as gunships.

Hit a sub with a gunship.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:6)Reaper; is not as good as the bulldog. this is insanity, because core are meant to be slow/heavy. since core lack a Panther (effective vs all N cheap) tank, they should have superior normal battle tanks, ie: reaper.

Riight... because Core should have 2 tanks heavier than Arms heaviest. Because that's totally balanced and necessary.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:7) mines cost towards unit limit, this shouldnt be the case as in small games (small unit limit) you cant use mines + have a big army

I agree with this one, I have never seen mines used in game at all. They need some kind of buff.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: microed ZIppers own all. I dont think zipper rushes are much fun for anyone, and I just dont see the point of a ZIpper unit. it just isnt fun to fight, and it is in itself encouraging a tactic most players despise.

This is not Sim Base. You should always rush a few units to defend yourself as soon as you get a factory up.

The rest of your points I know too little about to weigh in on either side.

Ok, people seem to dissagree with many of my points.. but I still disagree...

1) the spider for 400 metal teamed with any 1 weak unit (peewee) 100 metal WILL beat battletanks (1200 metal), sumos (1400 metal?), cans, its price in L1 kbots. my point is the spider on its own may not cause damage, but the spider itself has no cost effective counter when mixed with an equal number of units. a player not using or without acsess to spiders could not defeat a spider/unit mix with less than 3-4x the cost in units. this IS tested

someone said the counter is "a large swarm" but how much does that cost? and for that cost large could you make a force of spiders with a few offensive units? A: about the same size. result; the spiders would close (they are quite speedy) and would paralysis all.
my point was not as a unit its unbalanced. my point was cost/power, it is FAR TOO EFFECTIVE. the only counter for spiders is not fighting them on the ground.

2) people say the can is still good because it has lots of HP.. but for its cost(700 metal), that is not much hp.. 1 can = 2 zeus in cost, 2 zeus = similar hp, 3-4x the attack.. people say its long ranged so as a big group owns, but its range is just 400.. which is pitiful.. its laser does 60 damage a hit or less.. most vet players who use them halfway through the game said somthing like "omg no heavy laser as per ota11" asnd never use them again.

3) I will research

4)torpedo bombers are too fragile, and cannot survive with even 1 anti air ship present. normal aircraft are so much more vunrble than gunships.

[quote]5) The missle k-bots are good in small numbers against mobile units, because they have tracking missles. But the rocket k-bots do 25% more damage, which makes them better against structures. And the artillary k-bots are good in big swarms, since they can fire over each other. And the fast attack k-bots / infantry k-bots are really good at raiding. [/quote]

25% more damage.. but half the range, meaning they are pretty much useless against missle kbots in an actuall battle, where missles harass and attack llts from a distance. missle kbots would just retreat to a llt when rocket kbots tried to attack them.

6) the main response was "why should core tank be better than arms?" and "they got goliath" but thats the goliath.. im talking about reaper.. core trend is to have More HP/powerful unit and to cost more.. to have very powerful l2 units which are very costly.. it just dosnt make sense for arm then to have a more powerful battletank for the same cost.. the balance is already greatly in arms favour (more firepower/cost, as cores higher costs n hp means less units overall). The reaper is not very useful.

7) yeah.. engine limitation

8 )"they die to couple of (blabla)" is all nice but a couple of any unit costs more than 1 zipper, which is out superfast.

9)

microed ZIppers own all. I dont think zipper rushes are much fun for anyone, and I just dont see the point of a ZIpper unit. it just isnt fun to fight, and it is in itself encouraging a tactic most players despise.
[quote]Build llts.
The master counter against zipper rush, is to rush 3 jethros and 1 radar. [/quote]

firstly, whoever said that an early llt will help against zipper rush is wrong, zippers can run through a llt suffering minimal damage due to its speed or can go around. I have never seen an early llt help against a zipper rush.

A few missle kbots.. Per zipper.. a zipper being a similar price.. 3-4 zippers will overwelm its cost in missle kbots without prob if they are microed.. and zippers can just run past and damage eco and take missles for about a minute.. not a good enough solution..

10) leveler VS panther.. which is overall the most useful unit?

11)is the fido effective cost/power?[/quote]

Erom wrote:This is not Sim Base.

...I actually like really big, long drawn out battles of chess against my opponent. Huge empire wars that span half the map, as difficult to destroy due to their shear size of the geography they cover, as they are due to their thick overlapping defences. Trying to figure out how to poke a hole in that, exploit a crack, while keeping the same from happening to you is great fun to me.

That's the only reason I play the game. I don't really like to baby sit every individual unit. In fact, I wish I could tell units "Defend" or "Attack" and they would figure out the best way of doing that on their own, while I focus on building my sand castle.

That's just how I like to play. 1v0ry_k1ng seems to like that too, and I know of a lot of people that share the view.

As soon as my first plant is built, I have my commander guard it and spam out 2-3 combat units and my first builder. With the com assist these units are out almost instantly. I don't know of a single map where a rush zipper can get to you before you can do this.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: 1) the spider for 400 metal teamed with any 1 weak unit (peewee) 100 metal WILL beat battletanks (1200 metal), sumos (1400 metal?), cans, its price in L1 kbots. my point is the spider on its own may not cause damage, but the spider itself has no cost effective counter when mixed with an equal number of units. a player not using or without acsess to spiders could not defeat a spider/unit mix with less than 3-4x the cost in units. this IS tested

someone said the counter is "a large swarm" but how much does that cost? and for that cost large could you make a force of spiders with a few offensive units? A: about the same size. result; the spiders would close (they are quite speedy) and would paralysis all.
my point was not as a unit its unbalanced. my point was cost/power, it is FAR TOO EFFECTIVE. the only counter for spiders is not fighting them on the ground.

I agree on this. They should be pricier and have less range or be a bit slower.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: 8 )"they die to couple of (blabla)" is all nice but a couple of any unit costs more than 1 zipper, which is out superfast.
firstly, whoever said that an early llt will help against zipper rush is wrong, zippers can run through a llt suffering minimal damage due to its speed or can go around. I have never seen an early llt help against a zipper rush.

Make them level 2 I say. An llt does help if it is near their target - that is, if they can't run past it.

Arm penetrator cost like 1700 metal right? well take that sucker and kill it weakly, and the corpse is 2000 metal, so if you kill it, it becomes more metal WOOT, 300 more metal for the Noruas empire!

Where's Noize?

He probably knows more about how the balance is supposed to work than us.

Noruas wrote:Arm penetrator cost like 1700 metal right? well take that sucker and kill it weakly, and the corpse is 2000 metal, so if you kill it, it becomes more metal WOOT, 300 more metal for the Noruas empire!

yeah, but how much E does it cost? in the 10 thousands, probably

hm...

question may be related.

did the switech fix version of TA(that right?) include some sort of.. rescript of ta units?

i think original xta was based on that.

One last thought, Whenever I mention a sentence containing XTA (for example "XTA v3 needs players" large numbers of players will instantly reply "XTA SUXTH! XTA ISTH TOTALLY UNBALANCETHD!!1"... predominatly AA players..

what is so unbalanced beyond the odd unit being slightly OP/UP? :s

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:One last thought, Whenever I mention a sentence containing XTA (for example "XTA v3 needs players" large numbers of players will instantly reply "XTA SUXTH! XTA ISTH TOTALLY UNBALANCETHD!!1"... predominatly AA players..

what is so unbalanced beyond the odd unit being slightly OP/UP? :s

The gameplay tends to be more staggered. That's about it. I personally play E&E and AA over XTA... pretty much all the time.