Spring RTS Engine

Split from viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35837. (Silentwings)


This is where currently BA is discontinued, without maintainer. (I still am in control of it though)
I think nobody is fitting enough to continue the work in the spirit of the current direction it was heading and the state it currently is in.

I don't desire to continue due to lack of control about spring server/hosts, which resulted in limited testing options. Which resulted in the releases of 9.48-9.52. Cause we did a lot of changes and I felt it needed some big-scale gameplay tests.

The shitstom after that I couldn't handle well because I was a busy fixing code and dealing with misinformation being spread was like mopping a floor while the faucet still pours onto it. Anyway, the BA community suffered from lack of manageability in the last few months. Decay being inactive and various people wanting to change balance themselves. Some people got opportunistic about the whole storm and want to riot to get control as well.

Realizing BA's ota and ultimate is the closest (popular) to Spring engine root game left, people (devs) were involving themselves with strong opinions beyond reason. Everybody thinks they own a piece of it it seems, and I guess it might have something to do that it is based on pirated content in the end. The new forking rules are just a facade imho and wont solve issues like this. I am not opposed to these rules either.

Anyway I also didn't find good proposed candidates to take on the balancing dev role. There were a few candidates that might be fine, but they aren't very active players ([teh]Teddy or Keijjo for example) I don't even know if they desire to do it and have the will/skill/dedication to it that goes beyond knowledge of changing numbers in config files.


Some devs related talk:
Oh and I never stated Forboding Angel became a BA dev. He just helped me A LOT. He and Nixtux had some issues, but Nixtux didn't handle in good faith by bypassing me as BA dev. He overstepped his boundaries, he has his own game to attend to.

Senna keeps preying on the playerbase and misinforming it, and he just wants me to become his personal code monkey. He basically says: fuck your efforts! Can I has your widgets now? Also Senna saying to keep balance as is or was in BA 7.19, is funny cause of his abominations.


Anyway there are a lot of reasons to me that the environment as a whole is toxic to me. BA 9.54 could be the last BA version out, its in a pretty stable state, apart from the lack of testing (especially in the balancing department).

ps. I didn't plan on much balance changes, but the changes i made.. influenced balance a lot. They were mainly behavioral and aesthetic changes. A new balance dev could have eventually joined in to focus on the balance part of it all. But all in cooperation and good faith. Lots of thanks to all who helped me learning or just got things done for me. Decay <3, Forb <3, Thanks Bluestone <3 #sy <3

Happy forking.

Floris wrote:This is where currently BA is discontinued, without maintainer...
Happy forking.

@Floris: sad news, but just by reading the stuff in this forum, I can understand your decision. Thanks for all the effort you and Forbs have put in!

Imagine a plane full of people.

The people represent the spring community, the plane represents the progression of BA.

9.51 was equivalent to rebuilding the entire plane with slightly worse parts and saying "it's still the same plane". The passengers told you it was not the same plane and refused to board. You replied "I improved it" and proceeded to take off without them.

You said "everybody thinks they own a piece" while simultaneously taking the view that you would rather parachute yourself out and ground the plane than hand it over to its trapped passengers.

This is the exactly scenario the balance committee seeks to address, by getting BA back on the correct flightpath according to the will of the passengers.

@Floris:

This is where currently BA is discontinued, without maintainer. (I still am in control of it though) ... I think nobody is fitting enough to continue

I personally think that zombifying BA is a poor idea, done out of what I can only imagine is vengeance.

Both you and I (and as it happens, some of the ones before us too) took over from a position of having little experience and, in my own case, barely even any knowledge of how to code lua. I don't remember a particularly rosy relationship with you, at the point when I passed it on, either.

You won't be able to deny others the same opportunity; all you can achieve here is the inconvenience of renaming.

Decay being inactive and various people wanting to change balance themselves. Some people got opportunistic about the whole storm and want to riot to get control as well.

It's unfortunate that real life left Decay without enough free time to contribute. In view of the snide vitriol directed by Forboding Angel towards the large number of players with legitimate concerns (via viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35793 etc), and with no mediated response to distinguish the "BA dev" viewpoint from this, I am hardly surprised to see rampant hostility. It's a shame to see you gone as a result. Fwiw, BAs interface has benefited hugely all your work on it, I don't doubt that this is much appreciated by all.

The new forking rules are just a facade imho and wont solve issues like this

They are a lot better than the situation of a game dying when its dev vanishes, or insists on a direction that players refuse.

The draft is not disimilar to viewtopic.php?f=44&t=23943. You were given an opportunity (and still have it open in viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35828) to make a case for change or state any objections. Afaics you've done neither - which I don't object too - but without it I don't think you're in a position to criticize.

IMHO Floris did poor communication from his side: the version should have been tagged with "-test", like TechA, BAR and Evo do. That'd probably have been enough to avoid this whole mess from the beginning.

@Ares: But he did write that here in the forum! To stay in your story:

He clearly said "this is a new prototype airplane I'm testing - please wait until I have refurbished the inside to look like the 80s, while having a modernized engine". All you had to do is... wait and point out problems.

While Forbs was _annoyingly_ convinced all the changes were good, he _did_ point out that Floris can simply deactivate lots of them.
Ofc there'd still be a lot left. But maybe that can also be worked on, hm?

@Floris: I can understand that such a shit storm as thanks for a lot of work hurts, and you don't want to continue. But please reconsider. If you are really willing to work on recreating the previous game behavior like you wrote, I am sure that the rest of the community (that is not self-righteous) would welcome you. Maybe you have to hone your communication skills a little ^.^

If that committee is really ready to work for BA, then they should help you get BA to a beloved state in an iterative way: release version labled '-test-x', test (with the help of the hard working committee), code, release version labled '-test-x+1', test, code, etc.
In the meantime BA < 9.51 can be hosted as stable.

If the committee is willing to actually help BA, then this is what they want. They'd receive respect for that work.
If I understood Floris correctly, this is also what he wants. He'd receive respect for that work.

So everybody: shake hands, make a schedule for weekly test-releases and weekly test-matches!

dansan wrote:IMHO Floris did poor communication from his side

Also a short post here (just 2-3 sentences what's going on) about the plan behind the changes would definitely have helped. Also with keeping the part of the BA players that don't hang out in the chat up-to-date what's going on.

dansan wrote: If you are really willing to work on recreating the previous game behavior like you wrote, I am sure that the rest of the community (that is not self-righteous) would welcome you.

ACK. Would be great to see the result of the modernization after balance tuning and adjustments.

To Silentwings

I personally think that zombifying BA is a poor idea, done out of what I can only imagine is vengeance.

We've put 2.5 months of hard work into new BA version, it kinda is what it is atm. Plus it keeps my option open to still continue, if desired.

Both you and I (and as it happens, some of the ones before us too) took over from a position of having little experience and, in my own case, barely even any knowledge of how to code lua. I don't remember a particularly rosy relationship with you, at the point when I passed it on, either.

I was releasing (via Decay's widget packs) lots of visual ui improvements. Which at the time you were apathic about at the time. But via Beherith I got involved into improving/widgets for BAR. Until you asked me not to contribute to it anymore. I assume because you lacking the will or time to manage it (because of BAR alpha stage not all my widgets were optimized yet). So not long after that, I just released my adjusted or created widgets via separate topics in the forum and planned to quit developing widgets altogether. And then suddenly when you needed a succesor dev(s) for BA, and selected me and decay because we were realistically the only candidates. No wonder you and me didn't have a rosy relationship.

In view of the snide vitriol directed by Forboding Angel towards the large number of players with legitimate concerns (via viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35793 etc), and with no mediated response to distinguish the "BA dev" viewpoint from this, I am hardly surprised to see rampant hostility.

I have to agree that Forb's responses were too harsh for my liking as well. When addressing this at the time with Forb, he acknowledges this himself too. I didn't communicate enough myself I must admit. Forb was 'eager' to defend for me and himself. Forb also became a scapegoat for all changes even when I was behind it. I had little time/energy left in me to explain things orderly and adequately.

It's a shame to see you gone as a result. Fwiw, BAs interface has benefited hugely all your work on it, I don't doubt that this is much appreciated by all.

Indeed, but I do doubt the amount appreciation. People seem to be quite indifferent about it. All they really seem to care for is unit stats. (while this is understandable too)


To dansan

IMHO Floris did poor communication from his side: the version should have been tagged with "-test", like TechA, BAR and Evo do. That'd probably have been enough to avoid this whole mess from the beginning.

We initially did, there was/is a testhost, but only at max 2v2's were being played. Trying to get it tested on big scale was unfruitful, and in the past decay and I had options to force some testing. The only was was a non test tagged release. I thought my credibility and making clear it was a test and my dedication to fix things immediately would be sufficient. I guess that was a little naive in retrospect.
(especially considering the quite anarchistic state that the playerbase is in)

While Forbs was _annoyingly_ convinced all the changes were good, he _did_ point out that Floris can simply deactivate lots of them.
Ofc there'd still be a lot left. But maybe that can also be worked on, hm?

Yes I can agree that Forbs had maybe too much confidence in his supplied changes/suggestions. That said, he had my blessing even though the road was a bit rocky. But as is expected seeing the things we tried to touch/fix. I never experienced such cooperation before. Daily cooperation via voice chat and coding. It was a delight... at the same time it was frightning too Forbs dedication and cooperation was there to backup his idea's with contributions and explanations. Imo voice chat really can create a positive environment to develop in. (via BA's discord) Yes... I wish some stuff was done less sloppy but I can't really complain about that, all is done with the best intent. We all have strong and weaker points. Optimisation can happen later too, and there is always the option to revert things.
All Forbs ideas that made it in are still work in progress, but limited from now on. Stabilizing all current changes was/is my goal.

@Floris: I can understand that such a shit storm as thanks for a lot of work hurts, and you don't want to continue. But please reconsider. If you are really willing to work on recreating the previous game behavior like you wrote, I am sure that the rest of the community (that is not self-righteous) would welcome you. Maybe you have to hone your communication skills a little ^.^

Yeah fortunately there is lots of understanding too <3
I'm willing to reconsider if there is going to be proper and constructive feedback from players/testers. My main goal isn't to overhaul BA's balance, just to improve behavior, aesthetics and play-ability/user friendliness. Cooperation from the player base in this regard is necessary. Also the autohost owners need to be involved more and taking responsibility about some manageability of the community.

I created BA's Discord chat server for this specific reason. A platform for cooperation, support, news and feedback. https://discord.gg/aDtX3hW
I was happy I didnt' have to admin the servers myself anymore, cause it took a lot of effort that otherwise I could put in coding for BA. But as a result I come to stand a bit further way from whats going on between player(groups).
With our Discord server and the migration it Git, I was setting up things to become a welcoming environment to contribute to BA.

If the committee is willing to actually help BA, then this is what they want. They'd receive respect for that work.
If I understood Floris correctly, this is also what he wants. He'd receive respect for that work.

....insert some great quote about goodwill and respect....

So everybody: shake hands, make a schedule for weekly test-releases and weekly test-matches!

My hand is open...


... btw will pushing any change to git named like "VERSION{V9.55-test}" work just fine?


To qray

Also a short post here (just 2-3 sentences what's going on) about the plan behind the changes would definitely have helped. Also with keeping the part of the BA players that don't hang out in the chat up-to-date what's going on.

With Discord's chat system you can read up the past and view images inline as well. I encourage any BA player that is invested in BA to join our discord: https://discord.gg/aDtX3hW

What I said somewhere above:
My main goal isn't to overhaul BA's balance, I want to improve maintainability, adding some behavioral improvements, aesthetics and user friendliness. If any of these influences balance too much, the balance can be adjusted. There weren't any other changes planned than the already implemented ones. My goal now would be to stabilize. Any balance suggestions that are unrelated to the latest destabilization are not really my focus.

Floris wrote:Split from viewtopic.php?f=44&t=35837. (Silentwings)


Senna keeps preying on the playerbase and misinforming it, and he just wants me to become his personal code monkey. He basically says: fuck your efforts! Can I has your widgets now? Also Senna saying to keep balance as is or was in BA 7.19, is funny cause of his abominations.

OMG

Floris wrote:like mopping a floor while the faucet still pours onto it

You turned the tap on with the changes you made since 9.46. Don't shy away from the responsibility of undoing the mess. Either revert to 9.46 and resume development from there in light of what the community has told you or let the balance committee step in.

Floris wrote:Happy forking.

Floris wrote:My hand is open...

An insincere comment. You have shown you are only willing to proceed as long as everyone agrees with you. Simultaneously retiring while retaining sole ownership is just giving the middle finger to the people who disagree with you and accomplishes nothing for BA. You would rather sink the ship than work together with the balance committee.

Floris wrote:My main goal isn't to overhaul BA's balance

Floris wrote:the changes i made.. influenced balance a lot.

Floris wrote:Stabilizing all current changes was/is my goal.

Floris wrote:BA 9.54 could be the last BA version out, its in a pretty stable state, apart from the lack of testing (especially in the balancing department)

You flip-flop on all the issues. The entire problem is the sweeping changes you and Forbs have made since 9.46.

Stabilising a sinking ship is not good enough, revert to 9.46 and address the problems from there. As long as you think 9.54 is what people want you have failed to acknowledge the entire issue.

Balance committee doesnt want to fork, we want a proper framework for change that stops disasters like 9.51 ever happening again and the power to make development changes in line with a backlog democratically voted on by the community and its members. What is your objection to this? It is certainly a better outcome than a mod with no maintainer.

Wow! You must either be a child or a landlord. Do you also walk around in RL giving orders?
You clearly have either no idea what cooperation means, or you have no interest in it.

I'll revert some changes and fixing others but yes, it makes no sense for me to fully go back to 9.46

@floris

With our Discord server and the migration it Git, I was setting up things to become a welcoming environment to contribute to BA.

https://github.com/Balanced-Annihilatio ... n/issues/6
i would hardly call that a welcoming place with forbs tone to anything thats said.

Oh and I never stated Forboding Angel became a BA dev. He just helped me A LOT. He and Nixtux had some issues, but Nixtux didn't handle in good faith by bypassing me as BA dev. He overstepped his boundaries, he has his own game to attend to.

Well as i left the ba dev team due to the way forbs speaks to anyone, what i do is my business and nothing to do with you. And the comment about my own game I managed before for 6 years to work on techa ,ba and bar just fine thanks. I never bypass you I message you about Forbs attitude and you did nothing about it.

Floris and Forboding Angel did a great job to improve BA internals and UI.
And I like music and music widget.
I hope they will fix/revert the balance and then game will be awesome!
The situation reminds me engine releases :-) where spring devs are fixing bugs but creating new bugs in the "new features" :-) (I am not blaming them for that)
I have no doubts that spring and BA have a great future!
And I am resigned as a BA dev but I will still develop related projects like springrts.ru (currently re-design is in progress)