Spring RTS Engine

T2 kbot
-fido & morty Less cost efficient and less dps for cost than vehicle counterparts, the cost of building a critical mass of these units is always better spent on other units, increasingly rarely seen. When they succeed, winning by other means would normally be faster.
-archangel & manticore Much less cost efficient than t1 counterparts or fighters, only worth making as a last resort. Useless compared to t2 veh aa. High cost.

T3 kbot
--vanguard Very high cost low dps. Same cost as bertha, same dps as bertha but 4x less range than bertha and has to go near the front line. Deflected by plasma, no match for catapult. Were previously nerfed.

T1 veh
-samson & slasher Very low dps, have seen heavily reduced usage. Were previously nerfed.

T2 plane
--torpedo bomber Broken unit, many situations where bomb vanishes entirely in shallow water or off map. Never build this unless you know its flaws well enough to work around them, otherwise find another way to fight sea. Bombs should drop on or closer to target and travel along the water surface not beneath it.
-blade gunship Far less cost efficient than t2 gunship.

T2 structures
--moho exploiter Costs as much as a doomsday but has much less health, dps and use, stops mining when firing and also needs e to fire. You can build a t2mex and 2 viper for same cost. No reason to build this unit, always make a regular mex and in the time saved you will generate enough m to pay for a doomsday in the place of an exploiter.


Reduce com wreck from 2500 -> 1250 Currently game revolves around self d of commander, a negative side effect of an incentive system gone wrong. Killing com instantly earns you a t2 lab of your choice, breaking t1. Often 2 commanders will die at once which is 5000metal for whoever gets it. This can buy you a fusion or a t2 lab and 2 goliaths, far too much reward and a high incentive to combomb for m.

Amen to commander metal reduction.
I differ on the lack of effectiveness of fido, and morty I have seen be very damaging. Fido outcompete Bulldogs when given space to move, and are highly effective at taking out static defence. The only unit of somewhat close cost that will do this is the sniper.

Amen to that of archangel&manticore, though at times I use them just because

I don't know how many times I've been killed by a a couple llts, hlt, and slashers. I find that this happens fairly frequently when someone has relatively little metal against another opponent. Once you have a decent amount of missile trucks, they take down almost any t1 unit. (providing you don't give enemy time to build up counter.) But This only works if you can manage to get your slashers well established - a dgunning com is useful.

Vanguard is a great Idea and I wish it could be better executed, whether it needs less cost or more damage/shot.

Can someone fix torpedo bombers? Please?

Exploiter - well duh (ish). I've seen it used well but I am sure there's some other reason.

Blade gunships? As in the paralysers? They're so damaging imo. But gunships should be used more.

People don't use air to good measures anymore - fighterscreens just sit there doing almost nothing nowadays. And can be killed/penetrated fairly easy if you know how. Flak (as in immobile flak) can do a lot more damage at (I think) a much lower cost. Coupled with long range missile aa…

And did you know that razorbacks are often much better than banthas? tbh that surprised me.

Since I wrote this a long time ago, but never wrote any docs for it....

If you want to actually verify claim like "is rarely built" etc you can do so.

In your /spring/luaui/config folder there will be a file called BA_damageStats.lua. It contains a lua table of statistics about units, recorded from complete games that you've played/watched, divided (iirc) into large team, small team, and ffa.

For example,
And you can see the cost, damage dealt, damage recieved, cost of units it killed, number of units it killed, minutes at which it was built, and ts of building player (all are given as average figures, given per unit). You also get 'n' which is the *total* number of units of that type which were built across all the games that you saw (292 aafus built in 22 games, in the example above).

The file is blanked each time your BA version changes. It only records stats from complete games. Stats are recorded for all players (i.e. not just yourself). They are only recorded when the stat collection widget is enabled (iirc it is enabled by default).

The stats are not sent anywhere. So, since different people play/watch different games, two different people won't record exactly the same stat tables.

As a rough guide, I'd say you need 100+ games recorded to have reliable averages. Ofc, more for less used units. And for many units (constructors, scouts, transports, junos, ...) there aren't enough statistics recorded to capture their role/value.

Ares wrote:-fido & morty Less cost efficient and less dps for cost than vehicle counterparts, the cost of building a critical mass of these units is always better spent on other units, increasingly rarely seen. When they succeed, winning by other means would normally be faster.

Kbot shouldn't easily beat vehicles specially in flat ground, Fidos aren't that bad considering that can be built
by the engineer, which gives an huge advantage towards t1. Morties are a skirmish version of the sniper, so
they require los, and are still very powerful but less used than in the past.
Anyway i agree that fidos are completely useless vs t2, like Mavericks are.

Ares wrote:-archangel & manticore

This is a broad problem of any AA, basically only the flak is useful, because of AOE and planes that
fly easily packed. The missile way is inefficient without a proper aiming system. But this requires to re-think a lot of stuff.
I would rethink the whole air mechanics, tactical support drones more than 2° world war fighters dogfight

Ares wrote:T3 kbot
--vanguard

Yep the only useful t3 is the bantha...

MasterBel2 wrote:razorbacks are often much better than banthas

as antispam or anti assault unit, due to high dps, accuracy and firerate. but if you can build a bantha... :D
1 way could be for banthas and krog to swap weapons range, plasma long range, laser for the close combat.

Ares wrote:-samson & slasher

Before the nerf there were only mono-unit battles

MasterBel2 wrote:Blade gunships?

Are a noob trap like the warrior, except extremely rare cases are a totally waste of resources.

Ares wrote:--moho exploiter

Yep for t1, cost less to build a mex and a double llt, which is a way better and in the meantime you have the mex built :D

Ares wrote:Reduce com wreck from 2500 -> 1250 Currently game revolves around self d of commander

The game is commander-centric, which is a minigame in the game.
If you reduce the metal would be used as a free-bomb
if you remove the towers special damage, just go straight and dgun all
if you remove the dgun is a totally useless unit, and it's the only weapon you have against t2 or t3 rush.
If you reduce the comblast it's a rush click to who dguns first...
...
...
To have a priority target makes the t1 game a lot dynamic, and add a lot of unpredictability to sort
of the game, negative or positive, depends who sucks it :D
Commander is an unit that needs a total role re-thinking, just modifying a value causes a balance break
Considering also that it always been a free-trolling weapon, just un-used by player's ethic...

this can be is a very long discussion as you can image...

Disagree on most of it. Agree on reducing com wreck metal!

Well, reducing com wreck metal still means you get a cheap combomb. E.g. Com dropping at enemy base will be op.

Disagree on most of it.

So… what are we missing? Care to elaborate?

E.g. Com dropping at enemy base will be op.

Honestly t1 aa doesn't cost much, and a combomb will be easily prevented.

Btw I have multiple times taken out armies of cans, Bulldogs and other high - armor high damage t2 units with fido. It takes intense micromanagement though. But they have a surprisingly high dps. They only cost 270m - that's almost four to a bulldog. How many bulldogs is a critical mass?

One bulldog (cost of 900) has hp of 4200, 1150 for fido. Morty @ 407m and only 850 hp, with their even lower dps I'd say are pretty useless. Except when they're excellent at drawing the enemy closer

But this brings me to another point: are shields underused? So many weapons are plasma based; they would reduce the effectiveness of so many units if they were used more. Arm = 3767m, Core = 3985

And for their metal cost, Razorbacks will kill banthas like nothing else. So will the cheap arm t3. The cheap t3 can't hold against the RB because of their similar speed - the razorback can simply kite. You can build ≈ 4 RB to a Bantha.

I reckon that veh should be more effective too - apart from the missile trucks they seem fairly wimpy in comparison to kbots sometimes. Peewee spams are far to effective against veh for the metal cost.

Anyone ever had any success with lugers/core counterpart?

And I hate the effectiveness of Blades if you're not at t2 and with flak. They're so fast that they can take on pretty much everything except flak which has area damage.

No one seems to use small airstrikes targetted on the front line - why is this so? Bombers are soooooo cheap. I've never really been in the right situation to be able to do it myself as I am rarely the techer. But you onlly need 4 t2 bombers to take on an annihilator, (I think that's what I worked out), if not five. But that's pretty good still.

Are the t3 hovercraft any good? I'm pretty sure that they're useless. Anyone with opposing evidence?

And also the t2 LRPCs (as in the smaller 2500m ones, not the BB/Intimidator). Are they useless? I'd say that the larger investment in a BB would earn you more dps, though I haven't checked this myself.

AND NOTE PEOPLE WHO BUILD JUGGERNAUTS/KROGOTH: Krogoth have twice the dps as Juggernauts. (2687 v.s. 1113). Juggernaughts have over twice the HP (300000 v.s. 133700). Juggernaughts cost LESS: 19952m v.s. 28994.

If someone can find stats on the unit explosions, I think we've found a new best unit.

Knowing that a Buzzsaw has 2660 dps @ High energy cost/shot (= less m income) and they cost 43280m. If people would just build shields the Lolcannon would be useless, apart from taking on krogoths and Juggernaughts. But then Annihilators do it better :D.

MasterBel2 wrote:Honestly t1 aa doesn't cost much, and a combomb will be easily prevented.

T1 AA won't save you from a comdrop, just download out of range or use more than 1 trans or emp or...
And this is still abused by noobs that are so noobs that use long range units like assault ones, feeding only enemies,
but able to rape bases with this complex pro tactic...
The comdrop always been a free-cheat gifted for free to worst retarted trolls.

The only effective AA is the fighters shield and the flakkers. This is the reason t1 aa is not used, it's often a pure waste.

MasterBel2 wrote:are shields underused? So many weapons are plasma based; they would reduce the effectiveness of so many units if they were used more.

Shields cost like a fusion :D
Long range cannons are op, they kill the whole t2 gameplay and give a lot of superiority. Maybe they should be
like every other uber-weapon, long reload time, manual fire... like a tacnuke works

MasterBel2 wrote:Peewee spams are far to effective against veh for the metal cost.

Flea spam > any unit

MasterBel2 wrote:NOTE PEOPLE WHO BUILD JUGGERNAUTS

Jugg is more for fun that for being an useful weapon, you have all the time
to build enough tachions, or just plan to drop a com and click

MasterBel2 wrote:Anyone ever had any success with lugers/core counterpart?

Yep i use them a lot, specially forcing fire in the ground.

MasterBel2 wrote:If people would just build shields the Lolcannon would be useless,

the resources you need to build shields to successfully be safe from a lol you can build 2 lolcannon by yourself :D
even better is to build an emp, that really makes the lol an huge waste. Shields are spammed as a desperate act, but
you need ares-eco to succeed, hoping nanos and converters are still alive :D

MasterBel2 wrote:Are the t3 hovercraft any good? I'm pretty sure that they're useless. Anyone with opposing evidence?

Yep they totally reverted the sea gameplay. Long time ago there was a rule, who wins the sea wins the game, and resources
pushed to the sea player... :D

Flea spam > any unit

Yeah. Except beamers, pw, ak, high damage low hp units. But they kill everything else :D

MasterBel2
Anyone ever had any success with lugers/core counterpart?

Yep i use them a lot, specially forcing fire in the ground.

Interesting. I want to know more. I've never found them really usefull, but they're cheap so…

Yep they totally reverted the sea gameplay. Long time ago there was a rule, who wins the sea wins the game, and resources
pushed to the sea player... :D

Yeah, I guess they can get over sharks teeth? Ok, yeah. But in experience, normal hovers are better. Maybe if used together…

Alright so there is a rough consensus the following units have issues

Blade gunships
Vanguard
Exploiter
T2 torpedo bomber
T2 Kbot AA

Personally I no longer build fido or morty either and would strongly support a slight improvement of some description. (Think how gluon changed rocket spider rockets from 3 > 4, and now people make strategies involving it rather than ignore entirely)

Fido (useless vs t2)
Morty (rarely used anymore)


MasterBel, on the basis that you said Juggernaut is best unit in BA it is difficult you contributions to balance seriously, I think you will struggle to find a 30ts+ player who would agree Jugg > krog (except in very niche small maps, but I think we are mainly referring to 8v8 medium to large ones).

Btw I have multiple times taken out armies of cans, Bulldogs and other high - armor high damage t2 units with fido. It takes intense micromanagement though. But they have a surprisingly high dps. They only cost 270m - that's almost four to a bulldog. How many bulldogs is a critical mass?

Fido has under 100 dps and misses a high amount of its shots especially in its default fire mode. I have seen one bulldog kill 4 fidos and still have over half hp left on a few occasions and with even 3 bulldogs almost no amount of fidos can stop a skilled player's mixed vehicle army.

The point that fido beats can if you kite is irrevenat because, any ranged unit can beat a can if it just stays at max range. I strongly disagree fido beats high damage or high armour targets (unless they are idle) and echo what shockwave said "Fido can only beat t1.

One bulldog (cost of 900) has hp of 4200, 1150 for fido. Morty @ 407m and only 850 hp, with their even lower dps I'd say are pretty useless. Except when they're excellent at drawing the enemy closer

Morty add pressure, except the cost of building them is much less than the pressure they apply. Fido dps to cost is low but morty is even worse.

But this brings me to another point: are shields underused? So many weapons are plasma based; they would reduce the effectiveness of so many units if they were used more. Arm = 3767m, Core = 3985

You can counter plasma with a sheild, but it costs you as much as a fusion. Also you can counter a sheild by a cheap emp, just avoiding it or any non plasma weapon. Sheild is mostly good for emergency situations and its very wasteful to build them when un-needed.

I reckon that veh should be more effective too - apart from the missile trucks they seem fairly wimpy in comparison to kbots sometimes. Peewee spams are far to effective against veh for the metal cost.

Vehicle t1 is far stronger than kbot t1, stumpy spam can even beat some t2. Vehicle t2 is the dominant army until t3 comes into play, the only true kbot counter to vehicle is sniper. All other options are lower dps, lower ranged and slower than vehicle options.

And I hate the effectiveness of Blades if you're not at t2 and with flak. They're so fast that they can take on pretty much everything except flak which has area damage.

Are you confusing blade with bladewing? I'm not talking about the emp unit. Brawler is far most cost effective.

Are the t3 hovercraft any good? I'm pretty sure that they're useless. Anyone with opposing evidence?

T3 hover ruined years of perfecting sea balance and should be removed. It has more accuracy, damage & outmaneuvers everything on the sea and its sad seeing hovers, destroyers and battleships get owned by a unit that subs and torpedos cannot even shoot at.

AND NOTE PEOPLE WHO BUILD JUGGERNAUTS/KROGOTH: Krogoth have twice the dps as Juggernauts. (2687 v.s. 1113). Juggernaughts have over twice the HP (300000 v.s. 133700). Juggernaughts cost LESS: 19952m v.s. 28994. I think we've found a new best unit

Different unit purposes, but you will struggle to find another player who would say 40minutes into a game you would be better making a jugg than a krog generally.

Are you confusing blade with bladewing? I'm not talking about the emp unit.

Ok yeah oops… checking what the blade is now…
Turns out that in my list of spring unit names I got the name of bladewing wrong. Oops.

I'd have to agree on their relative uselessness than Brawlers.

Can I ask though are airscreens overrated? Would flak be a better counter? And what could the role of stillettos be in disbling flak units/turrets if they were used more than airscreen? I've never really looked at which would be better, but a decent amount of flak would surely be better than fighters, right?