Spring RTS Engine

knorke, apologize to bibim.

bibim, bring back the stats page.

I really loved the stats page and I've been very disappointed since it was taken down.

+1

(As I remember knorke did immediately apologize & clarify what he'd meant.)

First thing, I apologized here:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p543417

---
If somebody wants my point of view on it:
I wrote posts like this:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p543323
or this:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p543359
where I explained what problems I see with the stats.
Main problem being that people look at some graph and come to wrong conclusion like "ooh look new engine made so many players leave!" or "zk killed ba" or similiar.
Imo that is just useless panic as for example the apperant lose of players is just that bots stopped being counted as players. (that information is from bibim himself btw)

Second thing nobody seems to really know idea what "xta has 0,5 players averge" means. Is the half player split horinzontal or vertical?
Or people do not even realize that a number is in percentage and not absolute. That is a problem with people though. Annoys me when a nice tool like stats page is used wrongly to make crude theories.


Googlefrog should apologize too?
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p543306
(basically same what I wrote)


So after all these long posts then bibim posted this:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p543391

And, as said, then I apologized here:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 80#p543417

Though I do not know what for actually, as I would still like to know where my posts were offensive.
I did never say to take the page down: I just pointed out flaws with them and how people handle them.

I didn't pay close attention to the whole thing. I just saw knorke say one thing. bibim is very sensitive and has an artist's soul. His graphs depict a surreal world of sorrow intertwined with hope. You have to be careful what you say to such people. I just want the graphs back.

You know, Knorke, an effective apology usually doesn't consist of defensive statements and links.

I wouldn't mind having the stats page back, myself.

Do you want to feel me guilty or something? Then tell me what I did wrong in the first place.
I see just normal discussion and as I understand bibim did not feel offended. "I'm not offended at all" was his respone to my apology.
So I can not comprehend what he did.

No, I was kidding about knorke. This thread is a message to bibim. Bring it back, please!

I would like the stats back too. I don't recall writing anything particularly derisive but when people cite stats as evidence it is important to discuss the limitations of the stats.

Giving us the silent treatment is incredibly immature, bibim. knorke apologized, what more do you want? You are being completely unreasonable. Couldn't you at least say something? I think we at least deserve that.

Maybe he's just busy. Would love to see graphs back though, even if it was just a zip on some link we can pm to get.

CarRepairer wrote:Giving us the silent treatment is incredibly immature, bibim. knorke apologized, what more do you want? You are being completely unreasonable. Couldn't you at least say something? I think we at least deserve that.

Why do you speak about "silent treatment"? These two posts already explain entirely the reason why I removed the stats:
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 91#p543391
http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.ph ... 73#p543473

Knorke apologizing or not won't change the fact that some moderators think these graphs are "bad" in multiple ways, "unreliable", showing "very useless stats" etc. I totally respect their opinion, and never asked for apologizes.

Furthermore, if you want quick responses from me, you can send me forum PM. I find it immature from you to call me "incredibly immature" and "completely unreasonable" just because I didn't answer in a forum thread created during my vacations.

Anyway, I plan to put all my Spring related work on Github someday (as I did with SpringIrcBridge already). So StatServ (the Spring lobby bot retrieving the stats) and the corresponding Cacti scripts will be available to anyone willing to collect these stats in his own Round Robin Databases. Building readable graphs from these data is another story though...

I still think instead of taking the site down improving the mentioned things would have been better option. (or explaining them)
Or if that is not feasible, then putting a small "disclaimer" maybe. Could even be on wikipage where the stats page is/was linked from instead of page itself: http://springrts.com/wiki/Statistics

What do you want bibim? Do you want money? How much?

From the posts you linked, emphasis mine:

bibim wrote:I clearly disagree, but Knorke is a moderator, I can't really ignore what he thinks.

I think you are clearly mistaken what we moderate... Hint: We aren't here to supress opinions we disagree with.

I disagree with knoke all the time. He doesn't abuse his rank/power to silence me

Fwiw, I can see bibim's point, cause it has been done to me as well on many occasions.

But, whatever. The difference with me is that I don't like being pushed around, so I push back, whereas bibim took his ball and went home.

@bibim, if someone doesn't appreciate your hard work, just give em the finger and push on. They aren't worth your time.

+1 to stats.

yes, please bring them back!

knorke wrote:I still think instead of taking the site down improving the mentioned things would have been better option. (or explaining them)

I already improved the graphs as I wanted, and already explained what should be in my opinion here.
Now, if you though I should have improved or explained more things, you just had to ask me about it, not call my work bad in multiple ways, useless etc. (then for example I would have explained you that the graphs had to be smoothed this way otherwise they were unreadable given the daily/weekly variations...).
It seems so obvious to me that I don't even know why I'm answering you here.

gajop wrote:From the posts you linked, emphasis mine:

bibim wrote:I clearly disagree, but Knorke is a moderator, I can't really ignore what he thinks.

I think you are clearly mistaken what we moderate... Hint: We aren't here to supress opinions we disagree with.

I didn't remove the stats because I felt forced to, I removed them because it was logical to do so given what was said about them, especially from moderators.

Forboding Angel wrote:Fwiw, I can see bibim's point, cause it has been done to me as well on many occasions.

But, whatever. The difference with me is that I don't like being pushed around, so I push back, whereas bibim took his ball and went home.

@bibim, if someone doesn't appreciate your hard work, just give em the finger and push on. They aren't worth your time.

I just don't care if these stats are online or not. I initially did these stats for me. I enabled export and made them available publicly because some people seemed interested when I showed the first graphs I had years ago, that's all.

bibim wrote:

knorke wrote:I still think instead of taking the site down improving the mentioned things would have been better option. (or explaining them)

I already improved the graphs as I wanted, and already explained what should be in my opinion here.

That is excactly your post that I quoted when I wrote:

The drop of players which appears in the graphs last night just after midnight is actually due to the separation of bots/players

I was quoting you.

All the things that I mentioned, you had already written before. Just not everybody had read (or understood) your thread, so I linked it again.
Or as Google_Frog wrote:

Google_Frog wrote:very few people know exactly how they [the graphs] are unreliable.

Seeing posts such as this I tend to agree with that.
I do not understand why it is such a problem to explain the graphs in such cases; especially by linking to your own posts.