Spring RTS Engine

Starting post wrote:Has anyone tried to get more involved and felt blocked by some issue? Is our documentation sufficient?

UnitDefs:
* the wiki doesn't explain how unit defs are translated from maybe zk/units/x.lua to the engine-unitDef.
* There are 2 UnitDef/WeaponDef wikis, the table-one is cleaner, but out-dated or unfinished.

Spring-UnitDefs:
* variables are differently called
* Not all values can be changed (weapon damage, projectile type, etc).
-> I even heard that the footprint size get somehow multiplied (or divided?) by 2 or that things don't do what they should do.

* Customparams have to be strings -> lua script could export them into a gadget-global UnitCustomParams[UnitDefID]={customparams} table

* no simple support (or documentation) for model resizing

Many many small stones on the way.

hoijui wrote:i already explained in an other thread, why i think no new devs come. one main reason is the uglyness of the general engine design (OO wise), and the inflexibility/unwillingness (in my eyes) of the current devs to change this. it is not possible to work on one part of the engine in a nice way, because of that.

One BIG improvement would be to support Modular units.
-> That would make unit texturing and factory designs much easier, because you don't have to do the model and animation script twice, maybe not even the weapon defs.

But do object orientated changes would require a lot of code adjustment by game devs too.
(didn't someone recently started a rage-thread about something lesser? )

hoijui wrote:i never suggested that better design can not be done in many small incremental steps. that is how i would have done it aswell. but it is not being done, and it could be done. it is also easy to do, it is just boring work. it is also against the will of jk and kloot, which is the real issue.

SpringLobby's UI crashes (maybe due to 20GB maps) for me from time to time (private chat 10x10px, tabs turn to black, eats much ram).
WebLobby has huge lag spikes in FireFox and crash in Chromium.

Only NOTA works stable, but sadly there is no auto-engine selection.
Personally I would prefer a fixed SpringLobby and some spam filters abilities.

The Lobby is a big part of the user experience.
And not many possible devs want to do stuff for a tiny community.

NeonStorm wrote:

Starting post wrote:Has anyone tried to get more involved and felt blocked by some issue? Is our documentation sufficient?

UnitDefs:
* the wiki doesn't explain how unit defs are translated from maybe zk/units/x.lua to the engine-unitDef.
* There are 2 UnitDef/WeaponDef wikis, the table-one is cleaner, but out-dated or unfinished.

Spring-UnitDefs:
* variables are differently called
* Not all values can be changed (weapon damage, projectile type, etc).
-> I even heard that the footprint size get somehow multiplied (or divided?) by 2 or that things don't do what they should do.

* Customparams have to be strings -> lua script could export them into a gadget-global UnitCustomParams[UnitDefID]={customparams} table

* no simple support (or documentation) for model resizing

https://github.com/spring/spring/blob/d ... andler.cpp

Split these posts off as the other thread is about engine (+AI) developers specifically.

Also I'm not sure I understand your complaints about the wiki. Is it simply about the fact that accessing unitdef attributes via lua sometimes doesn't match with the unitdef tags themselves and this isn't addressed by the current docs?

as for

* There are 2 UnitDef/WeaponDef wikis, the table-one is cleaner, but out-dated or unfinished.

Whut? http://springrts.com/wiki/Gamedev:Main

-> I even heard that the footprint size get somehow multiplied (or divided?) by 2

internally in the engine. but it is not really relevant, the footprints do not come out wrong or something like that.

or that things don't do what they should do.

It feels in every 2nd thread someone writes "tag XY does that! / used to do that! / do not use this tag!"
And then it is always wrong.
I wish people would stop doing that unless they have verified for themselfs. Less half-known OTA history mixed with overheard nonsense please and more facts..

Honestly I have been shaking my head in disaproval at most of neon posts. I feel like I should argue/debate his points. However while I appreciate his ferver I feel his post points are more about preference and opinion. Why even bother anymore? Many of his posts feel this way. There are more productive things to do when I get back which already adress some of his issues. If you are interested and willing to chat with me in mumble or skype when I get back neon but if I am typing I'd rather conitue actual work rathrr than talk about it

As proven on ZK boards, the correct response to neonthreads is animated gifs.

well, it is very good that he is enthusiastic but a lot of his points illustrate a clear lack of actual knowledge and/or understanding of spring. I rather think he is intelligent and possibly could use his feedback on some of the stuff I am working on. Just that I feel he overvalues his input on a process that he doesn't completely get.

Welcome to the spring community. There are a lot of hurdles you have to jump over here. Complaining about them generally gets you flamed, so get used to it. People here are not super tolerant. There are a lot of things which can be improved, but people generally don't have the energy or care to do them. There exist hierarchies which allow older members to get away with complaining, since they might have contributed something in the past.

The best course of action is to submit patches yourself. These might also get flamed, you might get called names for not following different conventions etc, but at least then you would have the moral highground since you made an effort.

As a game dev(?), most people look at you and think you will be gone in a couple of months. For this reason they won't go out of their way to help you.

That's the biggest load of cynicism I've seen in a long time. It's also mainly hyperbole.

Well, there are legitimate points within that, they're just heavily skewed, or ignore the greater context. There are exceedingly few player or developer communities where pressure for change, particularly uninformed, is embraced. Tolerance is in short supply online, but anyone who speaks coherently will be at least read here, which is rather uncommon. Of course there is room for improvement, there is always room for improvement. It isn't that people don't care, it is that individuals have their own projects which interface with their personal passions or obsessions, and these require the majority of their focus and investment...

So it goes.

OK I know which wiki pages he is referring to, however , he is not looking at the proper wiki page for lua unitdefs.

There are two other wiki pages that talk about unitdefs, and he is clearly addressing those. I'm not convinced that he is even aware of your pages, flozi.

Cheesecan wrote:Welcome to the spring community. There are a lot of hurdles you have to jump over here. Complaining about them generally gets you flamed, so get used to it.

exaggeration. There are lots of hurdles but less than you would meet in other engines. of course lots of amateur game devs also rampantly pirate tools like max etc. most of the engine issues here are because of the kind of hardcoded bullshit he is asking for. Lua it where possible so it doesn't clutter the engine or add further complications to all other spring projects.

Cheesecan wrote:People here are not super tolerant.

It isn't like there is a lynch mob waiting in the wings. There are certain behaviors that are largely undesirable such as (I have an idea, do all the work for me) or backseat modders who like to talk about how their balance paradigms are the best evar etc. Some thing are terribly dull and honestly hallmarks of a kind of "kid finding a new toy, being all excited about it and losing interest a week later."

Cheesecan wrote:There are a lot of things which can be improved, but people generally don't have the energy or care to do them.

Many things have reached the point of discussion where it is in a put up or shut up. I've got things in the wings that I am working which answer some of the gripes and bitches of the community but to be honest, it has to be developed, worked out and thought out. That takes time and is not done over night. The level of effort for some things is so huge that it takes years.

Cheesecan wrote:There exist hierarchies which allow older members to get away with complaining, since they might have contributed something in the past.

Silly statement as it just essentially says "if you are not one of the community elders shut up." that isn't the case. Things are frequently changing and things which may have been impossible before, 1 month later may be easily possible. So there are still times where a feature is re-examined by a less jaded new guy and they have merit.

What neo is pushing for is not that sort of thing. he has ideas about how spring should handle all these things.. but that isn't part of an engine, he wants framework features, which for spring are largely lua. Some of which require patches to the engine to enable certain paths to be followed but until he has investigated in and pursued assistance in his task, he doesn't know. Right now he is spilling over with ideas but he is not considering actual implementation or what is really possible already.

Cheesecan wrote:The best course of action is to submit patches yourself. These might also get flamed, you might get called names for not following different conventions etc, but at least then you would have the moral highground since you made an effort.

or make a mini-project exploring your concept.

Cheesecan wrote:As a game dev(?), most people look at you and think you will be gone in a couple of months. For this reason they won't go out of their way to help you.

as an "idea guy" we see him that way. He graduates to content dev when he sits down and tries to produce something. He can call himself a game dev around here when he has a project and is actually developing.

I've been on forums where "here's my idea..." and "could you make for me.." posts are outright banned. I don't think this forum enforces that but neither is the community required to be polite about such requests.

My girlfriend says "we should" when she really means "you should" all the time and it really gets fucking annoying. Writing an idea is less than %1 of implementing it and it often implies that other people don't have good ideas or jobs of their own but are waiting around the forums for someone to give them one. That's simply not how things work.

I good idea thread reads like this:

"I tried to do idea X using code Y but it didn't work due to error Z. Here's the code I used for Y and the log lines related to Z. Can anybody help me solve Y or suggest an alternative solution for X. Thank you."

No company anywhere hires "ideas people", not even Hollywood. If you want to direct a movie you need a minimum of a college or indie movie up your sleeve. That means at some point you picked up a camera and actually shot a movie. Same for for books and games and even marketing (most marketting people have a business or arts degree). "I don't know how to program" wins you zero sympathy from people who went out and learnt.

I'm not sure how any of this actually relates to the topic of "Game Dev Obstacles" unless you count "laziness" as an obstacle. I think this off-topic thread split just went off-topic again.

I think this off-topic thread split just went off-topic again.

I did suggest animated gifs, didn't i?

Im an idea man, and learned to code, and then they told me to stop it, because my indention was horrible. Truce story.

Cheesecan wrote:As a game dev(?), most people look at you and think you will be gone in a couple of months. For this reason they won't go out of their way to help you.

By those standards, I buck the trend. I help people all the time who "Don't deserve it". I get asked questions a lot. If I can help, I do. Doesn't matter who.

Forboding Angel wrote:OK I know which wiki pages he is referring to

Which ones?

There are two other wiki pages that talk about unitdefs, and he is clearly addressing those.

http://springrts.com/wiki/Units-UnitDefs is the only page about unitdefs on http://springrts.com/wiki/Gamedev:Main
(=the only one reachable by clicking)
Which two other pages?

One presumes http://springrts.com/wiki/Lua_UnitDefs

So we have files specified by the game devs which control unit def properties, but to access those properties in game we use different property names?

I initially thought that NeonStorm was talking about _engine_ properties, those used internally by the engine and defined in the .cpp/.h files, and I wondered why one would care about such a thing (information hiding being a good thing and all).

However if both interfaces are used by the game devs, surely they shouldn't offer different property mapping, as that's inconsistent and raises confusion.

gajop wrote:So we have files specified by the game devs which control unit def properties, but to access those properties in game we use different property names?

For certain tags - yes. I was planning on adding an extra 'field' to the Units-UnitDefs page for those tags where this is the case (using 'special' param of {{tag}} template). edit: quick e.g. here

However if both interfaces are used by the game devs, surely they shouldn't offer different property mapping, as that's inconsistent and raises confusion.

It's not ideal... it's a historical mess and cleaning it up won't be easy. There are certainly some cases where it makes sense for them to be different as they aren't the same data e.g. string-input tags that become bitmasks, or tags that are converted between different units of measure during loading.

Probably the best thing is to first document those tags where it is the case and see what proportion are affected.

You can get a decent idea just by browsing UnitDef.cpp. IMO it is the exception rather than the norm.